[MGSA-L] censorship

Tue May 13 06:19:09 PDT 2014

It is worth adding that when I tried to view the webpage in Istanbul this morning this is what I got:

Bu internet sitesi (youtube.com) hakkında 5651 sayılı kanunun 8. Madde 1. fıkra (b) bendi ve 4. fıkrası uyarınca Telekomünikasyon İletişim Başkanlığı tarafından İDARİ TEDBİR uygulanmaktadır.  								

(The ADMINISTRATION MEASURE which has been taken for this website (youtube.com) based on the subparagraph 4 and 1/b of article 8 of Law Nr. 5651 has been implemented by "Telecommunications Communication Presidency".)	

http://www.tib.gov.tr | http://www.guvenlinet.org | http://www.ihbarweb.org.tr *     

----------------------
Karen Van Dyck
Kimon A. Doukas Chair and Director 
Program in Hellenic Studies
Classics Department, Columbia University 
http://hellenic.columbia.edu

On May 13, 2014, at 2:30 PM, Dimitris Papanikolaou <dimitris.papanikolaou at mod-langs.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

> Dear Mr. Grammenos, I really don't understand what you are saying and what exactly you imply is (or should be) "my kind of dialogue". Please explain, it may help all of us get to grips with what in cultural theory we call articulation: in this particular case, it may help us understand how some people's more vocal views, expressed with such insistence in this list, are articulated with other views, less visible albeit equally questionable and problematic.
>  
> Fyi: I responded to a pretty outdated (at best) and possibly racist (at worst) post about genetic imprints and originary identities/populations, with a recently successful performative gesture that may make us re-view identity and "being (re)born" as a performance. May I suggest you try a little harder with analytical thinking?
> 
> Last, but not least, since you are so keen on academic etiquette, may I suggest you also try a little harder with it too? It is Prof. Papanikolaou. And he knows exactly what he is ("still") addressing when he decides to do so.
> 
> Thanks
>  
> Dimitris Papanikolaou
> Associate Professor of Modern Greek Studies, Fellow of St Cross College, University of Oxford
> 47 Wellington Square, Oxford, OX1 2JF
> From: mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu [mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu] on behalf of Athanasios Grammenos [athanasiosgrammenos at gmail.com]
> Sent: 13 May 2014 09:09
> To: ΜGSA List
> Cc: Allen, Peter S.
> Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] May 10, 1956: The anniversary of the execution of two Greek freedom fighters
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> please remind to Mr Papanikolaou that he is still addressing an academic list, with interest in Greek American studies. There are several other websites or forums for his kind of dialogue.
> 
> I would also call the moderator to protect the list from personal attacks, irony and provocation.
> 
> Good morning from Athens.
> 
> AG
> 
> 
> 2014-05-13 0:56 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Papanikolaou <dimitris.papanikolaou at mod-langs.ox.ac.uk>:
> I had written a long email explaining my extreme unease with some of these comments. But then, I thought, what for? Some things will never change... I am only sending, therefore, a link that contains the gist of what I had to say in response to Mr Caratzas's informative exposition.
> Here it is:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRUIava4WRM
> 
> 
> Respectfully
> 
> Dimitris Papanikolaou
> 
> 
> From: mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu [mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu] on behalf of Aristide Caratzas [acaratzas at gmail.com]
> Sent: 12 May 2014 20:48
> To: Loring Danforth
> Cc: Allen, Peter S.; MGSA-L LIST
> 
> Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] May 10, 1956: The anniversary of the execution of two Greek freedom fighters
> 
> The issue as to self designation-definition is a complicated, hence interesting subject; Mr. Danforth is right, the terms Achaios, Hellen (Έλλην), Romios (Ρωμηός or with an iota), Graecus (Γραικός) all have a long history, and punctuate stations in the development or refractions of identity.
> 
> The same cannot be said of the Turkic-speaking people, especially within the Greek world; the original number of Ottomans that settled in Asia Minor in the 14th century probably was not more than some tens of thousands within a population base of some millions. Recent DNA studies confirm this as about 3% of "Turks" have genetic imprints reflecting Central Asian origins (another 1% has Gypsy imprints, i.e. north Indian). 
> 
> Thus the vast majority of the population of Turkey has evolved from multiple (?) identities, largely Greek- or Armenian- or even Syriac-speaking all Christian, over the last seven hundred years, into Turkic-speaking and Muslim. Speros Vryonis' monumental work on the subject of the cultural transformation begins to outline the processes in question. 
> 
> The point is that the primary identity for this group was Muslim and Ottoman. The idea of a "Turkish" identity was linked either to rather primitive Turcoman tribes during the Ottoman period, and then began to gain definition under Kemal Ataturk (the name-title is not coincidental), with German tutelage (i.e. late 19th century nationalist ideas, and 1920s-1930s fascist formulations). Thus the issue of a "Turkish" identity is much more fluid at present, given that Erdogan and Davutoglu have been trying to position themselves as heirs of the Ottoman Caliphate, which included other Sunni Muslims, mostly but not exclusively Arabs. Indeed Erdogan's political success derives from this association.
> 
> By the way, and given Mr. Danforth's interests, an analogous phenomenon, and certainly that should be studied, applies for (Slavo-) Macedonian identity, which began to assume its present form under Ivan (Vancho) Mihajlov's VMRO in the 1920s-1930s, again influenced by nationalist and fascist constructs — it is not an accident that Georgievski and Gruevski, that last two Skopjan prime ministers, referred to the "historic VMRO" as their political and ideological (i.e. nationalist) starting points of Macedonism. It would be interesting to hear your take on Mihajlov Mr. Danforth, as you certainly have studied the identity issue of that group.
> 
> ADC
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Loring Danforth <ldanfort at bates.edu> wrote:
> Mr. Caratzas attempts to justify his use of quotation marks around the
> term “Turkish” by noting that “there is a valid historical set of
> questions as to when a "Turkish" (vs. Ottoman, Muslim etc) identity
> developed.” I would emphasize that there is an equally valid set of
> questions as to when a “Greek” (vs. Romios, Christianos, etc.)
> identity developed. This does not, however, lead Mr. Caratzas to use
> quotation marks around the term “Greek” as he does around the term
> “Turkish.” The use of quotation marks by Greek scholars around terms
> of identity used by others (like “ “Macedonians,” ” ie. Macedonians in
> quotation marks) has a long history. (See the work of Evangelos
> Kofos.) In such cases quotation marks are used to deny that the people
> so designated are “really” what they claim to be. It is equivalent to
> the use of the phrases “so called” or “alleged” as in the expression
> “so called or alleged Macedonians” (legomeni or dithen in Greek). I
> agree with Mr. Caratzas that much scholarship has political edge, but
> as Clifford Geertz has observed, just because “a perfectly asceptic
> environmnent is impossible, does not mean one might as well conduct
> surgery in a sewer.”
> Like Prof. Allen, I am well aware of the 1974 Turkish invasion of
> Cyprus. It goes without saying that the invasion is a subject
> eminently worthy of scholarly attention. The implication that I am
> interested in censoring research on the topic is absurd.
> Loring Danforth
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Aristide D.Caratzas
> acaratzas at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> -- --
> And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.
> Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
> you will have understood by then what these Ithakas mean. 
> 
> Constantine Cavafy
> 
> «Εσμέν Έλληνες το γένος, ως η τε φωνή και η πάτριος παιδεία μαρτυρεί»
> Πλήθων Γεμιστός
> _______________________________________________
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