[MGSA-L] Syriza vs. Xrisi Aygi column Του Νικου Χρυσολωρα

Sat Oct 6 08:45:20 PDT 2012

As a matter of fact I said:
"Unfortunately, *many of those * who speak and write about Greece, know
nothing about Greece."Which is completely accurate if one reads Panourgia's
comments while he/she lives in Greece. I would appreciate if you did not
distort my words.

AG

2012/10/6 Philip Hager <philip.hager at googlemail.com>

> Following the new round of discussion, I would like to raise a couple of
> points about certain comments made and certain claims acquiring the status
> of verified facts in Dr. Caratzas' most recent response:
>
> 1.Dr. Caratzas wrote that 'this is a scholarly (NOT political) discussion
> group'. Although he is right to point out that this list is not for
> political campaigning, it is next to impossible not to be political in the
> context of academic dialogue, particularly in the current historical
> circumstance. In this sense, the distinction between the 'political' and
> the 'academic' is a constructed one that serves to objectify opinions (as
> 'academic/objective' as opposed to 'political/subjective'). The academia
> does not exist in vacuum, it is part of wider communities (political,
> cultural etc.) and should, therefore, participate in political debates
> (without becoming, however, political propaganda).
>
> 2. Dr. Caratzas' commented that 'the additional 22-23% [Syriza] received
> in the last election is made up of defectors from PASOK'. I guess one could
> say that those who voted for A. Papandreou from 1974 onwards did not become
> 'socialists' overnight; they were coming from another party, or rather they
> had voted for other parties before the junta - and most probably came from
> Enosi Kentrou, which can hardly be considered a socialist party. In this
> sense, pointing out at the fact that those who voted for Syriza in May/June
> are not *really* leftists is not useful at all; it only points at the
> ways in which representative/liberal/bourgeois democracy operates, while
> attempting to delegitimise a party (that received 27% of the votes) as
> opportunist.
>
> 3. Regarding the names-dropping of those in Syriza that have supported
> (with words not deeds) extremists, it plays on the way that dominant media
> (particualry columnists like Mandravelis) have used these same examples to
> argue that Syriza is an extremist party and to build this comparison
> between Syriza and Xrisi Avgi (that is further negotiated by Nikos
> Xrisoloras in his article on the issue). Such argumentation plays on the
> moral and emotional register of populism, which is (or should be) the
> difference between our list and the fields of journalism and politics.
>
> 4. Dr. Caratzas also wrote about 'Exarcheia, a neighborhood in which
> leftist radicals and organized crime intersect'. Dr. Caratzas talks about
> human trafficking in Exarcheia, but Exarcheia is not the 'red light
> district' of Athens. Dr. Caratzas talks of drug dealing, which indeed
> occurred a lot, but has stopped since the residents of Exarcheia claimed
> and took control of the square. What happened in the past under the very
> noses of police forces, has now stopped because of the locals'
> initiative. Walking the streets of Exarcheia is, by experience, a safe
> activity, whereas I am not sure about the rest of the Greek capital. Dr.
> Caratzas constructed an image of Exarcheia that is awfully similar to that
> painted by the dominant media and which allows them to Other a whole area
> in the centre of Athens as a state within the state, lawless, hub for
> anti-democratic behaviours etc.
>
> Finally, I would also like to comment on Dr. Grammenos' unfortunate
> comment that 'those who live outside Greece know nothing about Greece'.
> Such comments are far from what I understand as academic argumentation and
> I would agree with Neni Panourgia, Aristide Caratzas and Dimitris
> Papanikolaou's responses.
>
> Philip
>
>
>
>
> On 5 Oct 2012, at 22:27, Aristide Caratzas wrote:
>
> I am afraid there appears to be a misunderstanding of the meaning of the
> expression *ad hominem*, especially where that may have legal
> implications; it means something (such as a remark, a characterization, an
> ascription an so on) directed at a specific person. This may assume a legal
> import in the case when comments are aimed to demean or to diminish that
> specific person with the intent of damaging his/her good name and
> reputation. The comment by Mr Grammenos, may be too much of a
> generalization to be taken seriously, but certainly it does not aim to
> defame anyone  specifically. The remarks to which I referred in my comment
> actually appear to demean Mr Grammenos, though they may not meet the
> standard for defamation. And I would like to close my comments on this
> issue here, with the admonition that we need to remain civil, even in the
> cases of obvious and strong disagreement — this is a scholarly (NOT
> political) discussion group, not engaged in a zero-sum game, the way
> extremists of the left and right see politics.
>
> Now as to Syriza's "links and negotiations," as Mr Papanikolaou puts it.
> It is a fact that the Syriza nucleus (of the constant 2-4% it received in
> the polls during the years before 2012) consists of a constellation of a
> museum-vintage leftist factions; according to most polls, the additional
> 22-23% it received in the last election is made up of defectors from PASOK,
> mostly labor union members and civil servants. It is with the factions
> (συνιστώσες) where the links are interesting; by way of example, DEA
> (Διεθνιστική Εργατική Αριστερά), emanating from the Troyskyites, advocates
> violence against the extreme right; one of the founding members of ROZA,
> another faction, testified for the defense on behalf of convicted November
> 17 murderer Demetres Kouphontinas, whom he characterized as "fighter of
> noble motivations," and with other such praise for his politics. Still
> another Syriza-linked person is Iphikrates Amyras, who was nominated to run
> on the party list for the May 6 election, until a video appeared in You
> Tube in which he advocated urban guerrilla warfare and other assorted
> mayhem and armed violence.
>
> An admittedly more delicate set of Syriza links are those that emanate
> from Exarcheia, a neighborhood in which leftist radicals and organized
> crime intersect; the joint activities have entailed drug trade, human
> trafficking (which explains the "support" of some for the illegal aliens,
> and their enlistment in riots, large-scale looting and subsequent trade of
> merchandise thus acquired), even murder for hire. It is an understandably
> discreet task to develop information but scholars (as opposed to
> intelligence types) also are working on this phenomenon, both inside and
> outside Greece, and it is likely that they will produce work  packed with
> information and of scholarly integrity. Finally, a group of individuals
> exists with links to Syriza factions, that also has links with Hezbolah,
> Hamas and other Middle Eastern groups. Their names and activities regale
> dozens of pages on the internet, and are available to whoever cares to
> begin research.
>
> Aristide Caratzas
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2012, at 7:18 PM, Dimitris Papanikolaou wrote:
>
> Just like Aristide Caratzas and Neni Panourgia, I also found the comment
> that 'many of those who speak and write about Greece no nothing about
> Greece', an ad hominem remark, to the extent that it seemed targeting
> members of this list. This type of remarks seem awkward in this list, and
> thus I share Neni's frustration.
>
> At the same time, Dr. Caratzas, I find your last paragraph, with mentions
> of Hezbolah, drug dealers and human traffickers, extremely problematic, in
> that it is not supported by either research or references, and it is
> rhetorically shaped in a way that, to some readers, it may create the image
> of a Syriza engaging in this type of links and negotiations. This is the
> type of rhetoric that we should avoid, I feel.
>
> Last, but not least, may I draw your attention to a strong article by
> Giorgos Katsampekis, on Laclau and our discussion in the MGSA list. Just
> published on Rednotebook. And certainly worth a read.
>
> http://www.rednotebook.gr/details.php?id=6958
>
>
> Dimitris
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu [mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu] on behalf of
> Aristide Caratzas [acaratzas at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 05 October 2012 09:55
> *To:* MGSA List
> *Cc:* Neni Panourgia
> *Subject:* Re: [MGSA-L] Syriza vs. Xrisi Aygi column Του Νικου Χρυσολωρα
>
> Two points on the remarks below:
>
> 1. As I have understood it as a member of MGSA on- and off for two or more
> decades, and a subscriber to this list nearly since its inception, ad
> hominem remarks have no place here, however couched the remarks below
> inappropriate as they could be interpreted as demeaning (whatever their
> "Classical" cover). That is the stuff for defamation and libel actions, to
> which I referred in a previous posting.
>
> 2. In fact Mr Grammenos reported as an eyewitness to a particular event,
> in other words he provided us with one piece of evidence about the
> situation in Greece; many of us understand scholarship to include the
> proper recording of evidence and its subsequent interpretation. Much more
> of this basic recording of evidence work is necessary as relates to the
> situation in Greece...
>
> As I understand what Mr Grammenos reported, the high school students sang
> a song that culminated in the threat of the use of violence (molotov
> cocktails and explosives). The recent thread in our list to which he
> referred touched on exactly that point, allegations about the use of
> violence by Chryse Auge over the last few months, and by the
> Anarcho-Leftists (including by factions of Syriza) over the last few years.
>
> It would seem to me that a discussion about the loss of legitimacy by the
> major parties in Greece, the evolution of political activity towards the
> extremes of left and right, the readiness to use violence (and to ally with
> organized criminal groups [such as drug dealers and human traffickers], to
> give cover to foreign extremists and maintain links with Hezbollah and
> similar groups), all are (related) subjects which should be at the very
> heart of the discussions and the necessary scholarly work by members of our
> association.
>
> Aristide Caratzas
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2012, at 4:05 AM, Neni Panourgia wrote:
>
> Indeed, Mr Grammenos, indeed, many of those who speak and write about
> Greece, know nothing about Greece. Perfect self-awareness. You would have
> made Socrates happy, indeed.
>
> many of those who speak and write about Greece, know nothing about Greece.
>
>
> np/
>
> On 10/3/2012 8:08 PM, athanasios grammenos wrote:
>
> Some 150 students of a North Attica High School, protested today outside
> the Town Hall of their Municipality. The reason was a problem with the
> transportation of the students across the region, because of the budget.
> They went there, despite the fact that the responsible is the Regional
> Director and not the Mayor.
> However, the most interesting, is what I witnessed that they were singing.
> It was irrelevant to their main cause but it symbolized something related
> to the conversation about SYRIZA and Golden Dawn.
>
> Here it is:
> Ψωμί-παιδεία-ελευθερία (bread-education-liberty)
> πουλήστε τα γραφεία σας να πάρουμε βιβλία (sell your offices and let us
> buy books)
>
> πάρτε το χαμπάρι δεν φεύγουμε απο δω (get it, we're going nowhere)
> θα κανουμ' ανω-κάτω το δημαρχείο αυτό (we'll do a mess to this Town Hall)
>
> το μέλλον μας δεν είναι τα ναρκωτικά (drugs is not our future)
> είναι οι μολότωφ και τα εκρηκτικά. (our future is molotov [bombs] and
> explosives)Unfortunately, many of those who speak and write about Greece,
> know nothing about Greece.
> AG
>
>
>
> 2012/9/30 Christos D. Katsetos <cd_katsetos at yahoo.com>
>
>> In his circuitous, overly didactic, and hubris-laden posts, Dr Nikos
>> Chrysoloras,
>> journalist and EU correspondent of the Athens daily "Kathimerini," is
>> going off on
>> tangents, effectively avoiding direct confrontation of the main issue at
>> hand, which
>> is the legitimacy of dissent in the Greek political system.
>>
>> At issue is the journalist's statement that "both SYRIZA and Chrissi
>> Avgi's populist
>> discourses question the legitimacy of democratically elected governments
>> ."
>> Here the legitimacy of dissenting opinion is replaced by the embellished
>> phrase
>> "populist discourses [which] question the legitimacy of democratically
>> elected
>> governments." The author is using Laclau's analysis of the logic of
>> equivalence
>> operative in populist demands to justify his assertion that Golden Dawn and
>> the
>> Coalition of the Radical Left party (SYRIZA) are structurally
>> "equivalent" (insinuating
>> that the convergence of BOTH extreme parties is threatening Greek
>> democracy).
>>
>> As such, the militancy of the extreme right, which promotes hate
>> mongering and
>> perverts traditional Greek patriotism, is put on the same footing as the
>> social and
>> human rights activism embraced by the leftist SYRIZA party. In my view,
>> this is a
>> deliberate and self-serving linkage distortion. It is apparent that the journalist's
>> mission
>> is to nullify the legitimacy of principled dissent expressed by
>> political forces that
>> oppose the austerity measures and want to re-negotiate the terms of
>> Greece's bailout package. Arguably, the primary target here is not the ultranationalist
>> party but the
>> Coalition of the Radical Left party (SYRIZA) that has the potential of
>> governing the
>> country in the not too distant future.
>>
>> What we are witnessing in the Greek mass media nowadays is the emergence
>> of certain aspiring pundits with academic credentials, some of whom are
>> running
>> regular columns in certain influential newspapers, who are getting away
>> with
>> provocative and outrageous statements by adopting an arrogant style of
>> analysis
>> based on the framework and communication strategies dictated by
>> political
>> expedience.
>>
>> This confrontational approach only serves to further disenfranchise a
>> growing
>> segment of the population, deepen divisions in the Greek society, and
>> create
>> the conditions for the revival of a bitter and potentially violent civil
>> conflict.
>>
>> And yet, a growing number of Greeks (without Left-wing affiliations) are
>> opposed
>> to this divisive rhetoric and believe that Greece's path to recovery will
>> be achieved
>> only through national unity and reconciliation.
>>
>> -- See Prof Sir Basil Markesinis' interview aired on ET3 (Greek Public
>> Television)
>> on May 2, 2012  http://vimeo.com/41375667
>>
>> -- See Prof Markesinis' latest call for National Reconciliation.
>> http://www.antibaro.gr/article/5460
>>
>>
>> Christos D. Katsetos, MD, PhD, FRCPath
>> http://www.drexelmed.edu/Home/AboutOurFaculty/ChristosKatsetos.aspx
>> http://www.stchristophershospital.com/find-a-physician/120
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Nikos Chrysoloras <nikos.chrysoloras at gmail.com>
>> *To:* mgsa-l at uci.edu
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 28, 2012 4:20 AM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [MGSA-L] Syriza vs. Xrisi Aygi column Του Νικου Χρυσολωρα
>>
>> http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2012-September/014432.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *-- --*
> *And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.*
> *Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,*
> *you will have understood by then what these Ithakas mean. *
> *
> *
> *Constantine Cavafy*
> *
> *
> *«Εσμέν Έλληνες το γένος, ως η τε φωνή και η πάτριος παιδεία μαρτυρεί»*
> *Πλήθων Γεμιστός*
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l
>
>
> --
> ________________________
> Professor Neni Panourgiá
>
> 2012-2013
> Visiting Associate Professor
> Bard College
> Anthropology Department
> Hopson 301
> Warden's Hall, PO Box 5000
> Annandale-on-Hudson, NY 12504(845) 752-7217
>
> ICLS
> Heyman Center for the Humanities,
> Columbia University,
> New York, NY 10027
>
> Dangerous Citizens. The Greek Left and the Terror of the Statewww.dangerouscitizens.columbia.edu
>
> Ethnographica Moralia Experiments in Interpretive Anthropologywww.fordhampress.com/detail.html?id=9780823228874
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l
>
>
> *Aristide D. Caratzas*
> Telephone: 30-697-228-5442
> acaratzas at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Aristide D. Caratzas*
> Telephone: 30-697-228-5442
> acaratzas at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l
>
>

-- 
*-- --*
*And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.*
*Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,*
*you will have understood by then what these Ithakas mean. *
*
*
*Constantine Cavafy*
*
*
*«Εσμέν Έλληνες το γένος, ως η τε φωνή και η πάτριος παιδεία μαρτυρεί»*
*Πλήθων Γεμιστός*
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