[MGSA-L] Golden Dawn in New York city

Dan Tompkins pericles at temple.edu
Mon Oct 1 11:04:23 PDT 2012


I haven't seen the AHEPA statement but I'm glad they criticized Golden Dawn

As one who followed the weekly Chronicle assiduously during the dictatorship, I can report being dismayed at the published news showing that AHEPA seemed comfortable with the Junta.  Perhaps not enthusiastic but never critical.  This dismayed anti-Junta folks in DC and elsewhere.  (Too many Greek-American congressmen took the same line.)

Dan Tompkins

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 1, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Neni Panourgia <np255 at columbia.edu> wrote:

> I think that this discussion about AHEPA cannot and should not go on without referencing the work done by Yiorgos Anagnostou both in his book Contours of White Ethnicity, and his many articles on     the issue. Anagnostou gives a far more nuanced and inevitably critical account of the history of the AHEPA than is being presented here. 
> 
> On another note let's all refrain from making pronouncements that are conjectural and stem from the woeful lumping together of imaginary entities ("the left", "SYRIZA since 1974" "anarcho-leftists who are being supported by SYRIZA", etc). The are reminiscent of the idiocy of George W. Bush who couldn't tell the difference between Shiites and Sunnis and couldn't understand why Iran could not possibly be an ally of Al Qaeda. 
> 
> On that same note, and far more importantly, and here I am referring to this post and to the previous one by Mr. Caratzas, let's all be careful about the accusations that we make as some of them could be prosecutable for libel, at least. 
> 
> So, just to sum up, what I am proposing is that we don't use this list to attack anyone. Let's use this list to convey news, engage in scholarly discussion, and embark on academic analysis using fact, not conjecture, to support our claims. 
> 
> And, finally, precisely because our parents and grandparents fought against the Fascists of Mussolini and the German Nazis let's not provide here, in this list, even a hint of support or understanding for Golden Dawn. A political position? You bet it is. 
> 
> Neni Panourgia'
> 
> 
> On 10/1/2012 9:56 AM, Savidis wrote:
>> I would say it is a "severe misreading" to say AHEPA was talking about
>> SYRIZA coalition (which actually includes views all over the left spectrum).
>> They also didn’t use the terms "equal" "equate" or "equivalent" either. Nor
>> did I do either in noting the AHEPA statement.
>> 
>> It is clear from the AHEPA statement, as I noted, that they see and condemn
>> unique dangers of Golden Dawn, such as racism and attacks on immigrants, and
>> the specter of neo-Nazi anti-Semitism, and hence AHEPA uniquely named and
>> condemned Golden Dawn.  Is also a undeniable fact that violence on the
>> extreme left exists, including scores of Molotov cocktail attacks, rhetoric
>> that is direct incitement to riot and violence, killings of innocents though
>> actions that are inherently capable of killing (tossing molotovs in
>> workplaces), and in the not to distant past, among the ultra extreme left,
>> targeted killings. We have, sadly, even seen internationally known
>> personalities on the left making anti-Semitic statements (and I am not
>> "equating" that pedestrian bigotry with the programmatic core bigotry of
>> Golden Dawn, but simply noting it).
>> 
>> It would also be a "misreading" to imply AHPEA has an position on Greece
>> continuing "on the present path" or not: e.g. on staying or leaving the
>> Eurozone, on austerity measures or the lack of them, etc. What I see them
>> doing is deploring  a hate group that is violent, anti-Semitic, xenophobic,
>> and thuggish, while also noting the evident fact that there has been
>> violence and extremism on both ends of the spectrum. AHEPA's statement is
>> factual, measured and necessary. Noting dangers present in extremes is not
>> asserting equivalences.
>> 
>> As far as civil and heated political discourse that is not advocating
>> violence, xenophobia or destruction of the country, I think AHEPA correctly
>> and clearly stays out of that. In fact they have been very cautious I think
>> because they know the pressures the country is under and the difficult
>> course no matter what. AHEPA hasn’t said anything, pro or con, about mass
>> strikes, mass protests, adherence to the most draconian demands from the
>> troika, or reputation of all debt, or anything in between.
>> 
>> I have friends and acquaintances on the left and right in Greece, and
>> frankly every one of them I have spoken to, who has read the AHEPA
>> statement, found it measured and responsible. In fact it is a nearly
>> universal reading of the AHEPA position.
>> 
>> If you know the history of AHEPA, they studiously avoided association with
>> any side in the national schism, and this was a good part of their growth.
>> Although in the 40's under the leadership of my mentor, the progressive
>> George Vournas, they were both anti monarchist and anti communist, complex
>> events on both sides of the Atlantic resulted in them taking sides in the
>> next big schism (as did most of the Greek American community). This had some
>> persistence in to the 1980's. It is clear that for the past few decades the
>> leadership  of AHEPA has understood this history and is VERY cautious about
>> anything that can be seen as injecting themselves into partisan Greek
>> politics. That is why their statement isn’t the least bit partisan, but
>> rather about addressing extremists, one group which they see -- and name --
>> as particularly heinous. I applaud AHEPA for it.
>> 
>> George Savidis
>> Washington, DC
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu [mailto:mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu] On Behalf Of
>> Peter Bratsis
>> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 1:18 AM
>> To: lists1 at savidis.com
>> Cc: mgsa-l at uci.edu
>> Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Golden Dawn in New York city
>> 
>> 
>> It is good that AHEPA has come out against Golden Dawn but it is a severe
>> misreading to equate their actions to those of SYRIZA or the far left in
>> Greece.  Golden Dawn uses violence in order to defend the existing legal and
>> normative order in Greece, to provide 'protection' to citizens and to fight
>> back against those who desire to change key aspects of traditional greek
>> society (for example, those who challenge the religious, linguistic, and
>> ethnic social order).  Indeed, Golden Dawn often works in conjunction with
>> the police and acts as a very useful foil to the present regime, taking a
>> bit of attention away from the destruction and violence that the state is
>> inflicting on society and dolling out the beatings and intimidation that
>> would stain the image of official state security agencies.  
>> 
>> Presumably the violence and disorder one see on the streets during protests
>> and general strikes (leaving aside the plain truth that this is most often
>> at the hands of the police) is what is understood as being the violence and
>> threats from the left.  That violence is a part of politics is a given,
>> there is no denying that fact.  However, the violence from the left is
>> categorically different in that it seeks to overturn and transform the
>> existing legal and political order in Greece.  From the other side, from the
>> right and the repressive apparatuses of the state, the purpose is to defend
>> and continue the existing legal and political order.   
>> 
>> Those who believe that Greece is doing well and should continue on the
>> present path, then by all means present the left as a danger to the status
>> quo.   However if you simply decry violence and conflict, then you are
>> fundamentally siding the with the existing regime and its own version of
>> violence as a means of protecting existing Greek and EU policies.  The
>> choice is not between violence on one side and none on the other, a position
>> other than a partisan one is possible, either you want to defend and
>> continue the existing order or you are on the side who wants to found a new
>> one.
>> 
>> 
>> Peter Bratsis
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 29, 2012, at 7:21 AM, "Savidis" <lists1 at savidis.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> It is important to note that the largest Hellenic heritage/diaspora 
>>> organization in the world (excepting the Church), the American 
>>> Hellenic Educational Progressive Association (AHEPA), has strongly and 
>>> publically condemned Golden Dawn and the opening of this “office.”
>>> 
>>> AHEPA’s statement is fairly and rightly explicit in labeling the group 
>>> as bigoted and neo-Nazi, and in pointing out the irony of a Golden 
>>> Dawn attempting to recruit in the home of the descendents of Greek 
>>> immigrants -- who themselves had a long slog against xenophobic 
>>> nativism and outright racism.
>>> 
>>> Relevant to the prior discussion it is also instructive to note AHEPA 
>>> also makes it clear this is a problem of both the ultra right and 
>>> ultra left, which has been violent and equally nihilistic and 
>>> threatening to democratically elected Greek governments: "Simply 
>>> stated, such rhetoric and acts conducted by extremists on both the 
>>> right and left are unacceptable and deeply concern us as a community and
>> as Ahepans. "
>>> I find the AHEPA statement to be quite sober, well reasoned and well
>> timed.
>>> It points to specific and unique dangers of Golden Dawn, and 
>>> specifically and categorically deplores them, while also stating the 
>>> evident fact that extremists on the left also threaten civil society
>> there.
>>> George P. Savidis
>>> Washington, DC
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu [mailto:mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu] On Behalf 
>>> Of Eleni Bastea
>>> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 7:24 PM
>>> To: mgsa-l at uci.edu
>>> Subject: [MGSA-L] Golden Dawn in New York city
>>> 
>>> While we are debating what should and should not be published on the 
>>> MGSA list, Golden Dawn has opened an office in New York City. Deeply 
>>> troubling all around. Maybe our New York colleagues can comment more.
>>> http://www.salon.com/2012/09/24/greek_neo_nazi_party_sets_up_ny_office
>>> / 
>>> http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/09/23/3107701/greek-neo-nazi-part
>>> y-sets
>>> -up-new-york-office
>>> 
>>> Quite troubling is also the commentary by various readers following 
>>> some of these articles.
>>> Eleni
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Eleni Bastéa, M.Arch., Ph.D.
>>> Professor, Architecture Program
>>> School of Architecture and Planning
>>> The University of New Mexico
>>> MSC04 2530, 1 University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001, USA 
>>> http://www.elenibastea.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> -- 
> ________________________
> Professor Neni Panourgiá
> 
> 2012-2013
> Visiting Associate Professor
> Bard College
> Anthropology Department 
> Hopson 301
> Warden's Hall, PO Box 5000
> Annandale-on-Hudson, NY 12504
> (845) 752-7217
> 
> ICLS
> Heyman Center for the Humanities, 
> Columbia University, 
> New York, NY 10027
> 
> Dangerous Citizens. The Greek Left and the Terror of the State
> www.dangerouscitizens.columbia.edu
> 
> Ethnographica Moralia Experiments in Interpretive Anthropology
> www.fordhampress.com/detail.html?id=9780823228874
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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