[MGSA-L] Golden Dawn in New York city

Savidis lists1 at savidis.com
Mon Oct 1 06:56:23 PDT 2012


I would say it is a "severe misreading" to say AHEPA was talking about
SYRIZA coalition (which actually includes views all over the left spectrum).
They also didn’t use the terms "equal" "equate" or "equivalent" either. Nor
did I do either in noting the AHEPA statement.

It is clear from the AHEPA statement, as I noted, that they see and condemn
unique dangers of Golden Dawn, such as racism and attacks on immigrants, and
the specter of neo-Nazi anti-Semitism, and hence AHEPA uniquely named and
condemned Golden Dawn.  Is also a undeniable fact that violence on the
extreme left exists, including scores of Molotov cocktail attacks, rhetoric
that is direct incitement to riot and violence, killings of innocents though
actions that are inherently capable of killing (tossing molotovs in
workplaces), and in the not to distant past, among the ultra extreme left,
targeted killings. We have, sadly, even seen internationally known
personalities on the left making anti-Semitic statements (and I am not
"equating" that pedestrian bigotry with the programmatic core bigotry of
Golden Dawn, but simply noting it).

It would also be a "misreading" to imply AHPEA has an position on Greece
continuing "on the present path" or not: e.g. on staying or leaving the
Eurozone, on austerity measures or the lack of them, etc. What I see them
doing is deploring  a hate group that is violent, anti-Semitic, xenophobic,
and thuggish, while also noting the evident fact that there has been
violence and extremism on both ends of the spectrum. AHEPA's statement is
factual, measured and necessary. Noting dangers present in extremes is not
asserting equivalences.

As far as civil and heated political discourse that is not advocating
violence, xenophobia or destruction of the country, I think AHEPA correctly
and clearly stays out of that. In fact they have been very cautious I think
because they know the pressures the country is under and the difficult
course no matter what. AHEPA hasn’t said anything, pro or con, about mass
strikes, mass protests, adherence to the most draconian demands from the
troika, or reputation of all debt, or anything in between.

I have friends and acquaintances on the left and right in Greece, and
frankly every one of them I have spoken to, who has read the AHEPA
statement, found it measured and responsible. In fact it is a nearly
universal reading of the AHEPA position.

If you know the history of AHEPA, they studiously avoided association with
any side in the national schism, and this was a good part of their growth.
Although in the 40's under the leadership of my mentor, the progressive
George Vournas, they were both anti monarchist and anti communist, complex
events on both sides of the Atlantic resulted in them taking sides in the
next big schism (as did most of the Greek American community). This had some
persistence in to the 1980's. It is clear that for the past few decades the
leadership  of AHEPA has understood this history and is VERY cautious about
anything that can be seen as injecting themselves into partisan Greek
politics. That is why their statement isn’t the least bit partisan, but
rather about addressing extremists, one group which they see -- and name --
as particularly heinous. I applaud AHEPA for it.

George Savidis
Washington, DC


-----Original Message-----
From: mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu [mailto:mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu] On Behalf Of
Peter Bratsis
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 1:18 AM
To: lists1 at savidis.com
Cc: mgsa-l at uci.edu
Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Golden Dawn in New York city


It is good that AHEPA has come out against Golden Dawn but it is a severe
misreading to equate their actions to those of SYRIZA or the far left in
Greece.  Golden Dawn uses violence in order to defend the existing legal and
normative order in Greece, to provide 'protection' to citizens and to fight
back against those who desire to change key aspects of traditional greek
society (for example, those who challenge the religious, linguistic, and
ethnic social order).  Indeed, Golden Dawn often works in conjunction with
the police and acts as a very useful foil to the present regime, taking a
bit of attention away from the destruction and violence that the state is
inflicting on society and dolling out the beatings and intimidation that
would stain the image of official state security agencies.  

Presumably the violence and disorder one see on the streets during protests
and general strikes (leaving aside the plain truth that this is most often
at the hands of the police) is what is understood as being the violence and
threats from the left.  That violence is a part of politics is a given,
there is no denying that fact.  However, the violence from the left is
categorically different in that it seeks to overturn and transform the
existing legal and political order in Greece.  From the other side, from the
right and the repressive apparatuses of the state, the purpose is to defend
and continue the existing legal and political order.   

Those who believe that Greece is doing well and should continue on the
present path, then by all means present the left as a danger to the status
quo.   However if you simply decry violence and conflict, then you are
fundamentally siding the with the existing regime and its own version of
violence as a means of protecting existing Greek and EU policies.  The
choice is not between violence on one side and none on the other, a position
other than a partisan one is possible, either you want to defend and
continue the existing order or you are on the side who wants to found a new
one.


Peter Bratsis


On Sep 29, 2012, at 7:21 AM, "Savidis" <lists1 at savidis.com> wrote:

> It is important to note that the largest Hellenic heritage/diaspora 
> organization in the world (excepting the Church), the American 
> Hellenic Educational Progressive Association (AHEPA), has strongly and 
> publically condemned Golden Dawn and the opening of this “office.”
> 
> AHEPA’s statement is fairly and rightly explicit in labeling the group 
> as bigoted and neo-Nazi, and in pointing out the irony of a Golden 
> Dawn attempting to recruit in the home of the descendents of Greek 
> immigrants -- who themselves had a long slog against xenophobic 
> nativism and outright racism.
> 
> Relevant to the prior discussion it is also instructive to note AHEPA 
> also makes it clear this is a problem of both the ultra right and 
> ultra left, which has been violent and equally nihilistic and 
> threatening to democratically elected Greek governments: "Simply 
> stated, such rhetoric and acts conducted by extremists on both the 
> right and left are unacceptable and deeply concern us as a community and
as Ahepans. "
> 
> I find the AHEPA statement to be quite sober, well reasoned and well
timed.
> It points to specific and unique dangers of Golden Dawn, and 
> specifically and categorically deplores them, while also stating the 
> evident fact that extremists on the left also threaten civil society
there.
> 
> George P. Savidis
> Washington, DC
> 
> 
> 
> From: mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu [mailto:mgsa-l-bounces at uci.edu] On Behalf 
> Of Eleni Bastea
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 7:24 PM
> To: mgsa-l at uci.edu
> Subject: [MGSA-L] Golden Dawn in New York city
> 
> While we are debating what should and should not be published on the 
> MGSA list, Golden Dawn has opened an office in New York City. Deeply 
> troubling all around. Maybe our New York colleagues can comment more.
> http://www.salon.com/2012/09/24/greek_neo_nazi_party_sets_up_ny_office
> / 
> http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/09/23/3107701/greek-neo-nazi-part
> y-sets
> -up-new-york-office
> 
> Quite troubling is also the commentary by various readers following 
> some of these articles.
> Eleni
> 
> 
> --
> Eleni Bastéa, M.Arch., Ph.D.
> Professor, Architecture Program
> School of Architecture and Planning
> The University of New Mexico
> MSC04 2530, 1 University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001, USA 
> http://www.elenibastea.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l

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