<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Another worthwhile comment on Cavalli-Sforza</div><div><br></div><div>Dan<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>Begin forwarded message:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><b>From:</b> Colin McLarty <<a href="mailto:colin.mclarty@CASE.EDU">colin.mclarty@CASE.EDU</a>><br><b>Date:</b> December 26, 2014 at 3:32:25 PM EST<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU">CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU</a><br><b>Subject:</b> <b>Re: Golden Dawn Abuse of History: Sparta</b><br><b>Reply-To:</b> Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU">CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU</a>><br><br></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>I doubt anyone has collected a massive critique. Cavalli-Sforza is</span><br><span>enormously respected for making important and nearly impossible problems of</span><br><span>human migration over the past 150,000 years approachable by data. For an</span><br><span>idea of what that means, it begins more or less when human started</span><br><span>migrating out of Africa, and started making tools from flakes taken off of</span><br><span>prepared stone cores instead of putting an edge on a stone and using that.</span><br><span>The most recent ice age glaciation began about 110,000 years ago and ended</span><br><span>about 15,000 years ago. Human populations were very small during the</span><br><span>glaciation. People do not even like to make guesses but there are</span><br><span>estimates that the population of Europe during the glaciation was well</span><br><span>under 10,000 (that is not a typo, and not short for some number of</span><br><span>millions, it is really10,000 people).</span><br><span></span><br><span>But these problems may just be impossible. With the genetic technology of</span><br><span>the 1990s and before, collecting data was slow and difficult. As it has</span><br><span>sped up, it has also revealed that the range of data is even more immense</span><br><span>than anyone guessed. And you run into extremely contentious problems of</span><br><span>defining what is "European origin" or "Chinese," or "African," let alone</span><br><span>tracking more detailed migrations of people.</span><br><span></span><br><span>So people are not inclined to criticize a brilliant effort. But as Jon</span><br><span>Marks says it is hard to know exactly what to make of the particular claims.</span><br><span></span><br><span>Colin</span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span>On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Dan Tompkins <<a href="mailto:pericles@temple.edu">pericles@temple.edu</a>> wrote:</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>Thanks very much for this. Fuller quote.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Are other Cavalli-Sforza results this dubious? I'd bet someone's worked</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>this up.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Dan</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Sent from my iPhone</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Dec 26, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Colin McLarty <<a href="mailto:colin.mclarty@CASE.EDU">colin.mclarty@CASE.EDU</a>></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>wrote:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Thanks to Dan for digging into this, but the quote from Jon Marks got</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>badly</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>shortened, so it left out the actual criticism of Cavalli-Sforza's</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>conclusion. Marks knows genetics and statistics very well as do a good</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>many anthropologists. The fuller quote is</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>In fact, I have always thought that the root of Cavalli-Sforza's failure</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>to connect with the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>broader anthropological community is simply that most anthropologists</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>simply do not know</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>how seriously to take research that can contrast the DNA of 64 samples</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>"Chinese ..</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>. living in the San Francisco Bay Area", 94 samples from "two groups of</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>African pygmies",</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>and 110 samples from "individuals of European origin from ongoing</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>studies</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>in our laboratories</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>or reported in the literature", and conclude sweepingly that "ancestral</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Europeans are</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>estimated to be an admixture of 65% ancestral Chinese and 35% ancestral</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Africans"</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA, 88 839, 1991).</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>However</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>sophisticated the statistics, they simply cannot transcend the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>limitations of</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>unsophisticated epistemologies.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>The samples are explicitly spotty and poorly characterized. It is a safe</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>bet that all living humans are of African ancestry (though few of</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>specifically pygmy ancestry). So why is that 35% not reported as 100%?</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>And what are either "ancestral Europeans" or "individuals of European</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>origin"? Sophisticated crunching of numbers leads nowhere if the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>numbers</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>are poorly obtained.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Colin</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 1:31 PM, DANIEL P. Tompkins <<a href="mailto:pericles@temple.edu">pericles@temple.edu</a></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>wrote:</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Thanks, Jim,</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>I'm copying the Modern Greek Studies list as well</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>I went to JStor and did a quick search for what recent scholarship in</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>bio,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>anthro and other disciplines has had to say. There is a lot of positive</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>comment, but also serious reservations, e.g. this from Jonathan Marks in</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>The</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute, 2006 (reviewing Lurkin's</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>book on Cavalli-Sforza).</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>It sounds as if one should be careful here. I have not dug very deep.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>I have always thought that the root of Cavalli-Sforza's failure to</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>connect</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>with the broader anthropological community is simply that most</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>anthropologists simply do not know how seriously to take research that</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>can</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>contrast the DNA of 64 samples of "Chinese in the San Francisco Bay</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Area,"</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>94 samples from two groups of African pygmies, and 110 samples from</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>"individuals of European origin from ongoing studies in our</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>laboratories or</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>of the National Academy of Sciences USA." However sophisticated the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>statistics, they simply cannot transcend the limitations of</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>unsophisticated</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>epistemologies.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Dan</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 12:54 PM, James H. Dee <<a href="mailto:jhdee1243@gmail.com">jhdee1243@gmail.com</a>></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>wrote:</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Almost certainly to *The History & Geography of Human Genes* (Princeton</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>1994), a thousand-plus-page work -- done *before* the analysis of the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>genome was completed in the late 90s. There must be better & more</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>detailed</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>information available now -- is there a population biologist in the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>house?</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>There's a less-indigestible version, *The Great Human Diasporas*</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>(1995).</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>As a recently-released study of "African-American" & "Native-American"</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>genetics shows, there can be significant gaps between "cultural</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>identity"</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>and "biological identity."</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>J. H. Dee</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Austin, TX</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Elias j Theodoracopoulos <</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="mailto:ejtheod@hunter.cuny.edu">ejtheod@hunter.cuny.edu</a>> wrote:</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>For those of us not up-to-date on anthropology or genetics, what is</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>reference in "Cavalli-Sforza"? Thank you.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>E. J. Theodoracopoulos</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Hunter College, CUNY</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>________________________________________</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>From: Classical Greek and Latin Discussion Group [</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="mailto:CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU">CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU</a></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>]</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>on behalf of Aristide Caratzas [<a href="mailto:acaratzas@GMAIL.COM">acaratzas@GMAIL.COM</a>]</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2014 3:50 PM</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>To: <a href="mailto:CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU">CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU</a></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Subject: Re: [CLASSICS-L] Golden Dawn Abuse of History: Sparta</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Concepts such a "purity of Greek descent" are clearly outdated, given</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>fact that DNA now allows us to establish the biological relationships</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>between human groupings; it is interesting to note that Cavalli-Sforza</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>and</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>his students have established a genetic "map" of Greece, which attests</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>to</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>the fact that 95% of the native population below a line formed by</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Dyrrhachion, Monastiri (in today's Skopje statelet), Philippoupolis</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>(today</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Plovdiv, Bulgaria) and Pyrgos (Burgas, also in Bulgaria) all the way</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>to</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Crete and including the Ionian coast and Cyprus, has a continuity in a</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>*biologica*l presence (as distinct from *cultural *identity and the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>elements on which it draws) of about 12,000 years.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></div></blockquote></body></html>