[MGSA-L] Summary of responses against a new list

[J S Philobiblos]

Here are some thoughts on the question of inclusion/exclusion of discussion
of issues related to Cyprus on this list:

- Two basic definitional points: this is a list that (a) is by and large
scholarly (despite the occasional inappropriate outbursts), and (b) concerns
itself with issues of Modern Greek studies.

- Because this is a scholarly list contributions at times may become quite
pedantic and narrow in terms of interest and argumentation. They also have
become repetitive. My eyes also often glaze over arguments that are
predictable, repetitive, boring and self-indulgent. In this Roland has at
least my sympathies. These things are inherent to the scholarly trade and
are played up by this medium (the internet-based discussion list).

- Because this list concerns itself with aspects of Modern Hellenism it is
inconceivable to exclude Cyprus and Cypriot Hellenism. The fate of Cyprus
has been one of the main issues that determined the course of at least the
last half century of Greek political life and history on many levels.
Equally importantly it constitutes an issue that touches on foundational,
one might say existential, questions about the nature of Greekness and
Hellenism.

- Non-Greeks may have difficulty grasping the impact on the Greek psyche
(perhaps a scholarly word may be "mentalité") of the succession of traumas
related to Cyprus. English language scholars often have been prone to accept
assumptions generated by an alternate reality created by British colonialism
and Turkish expansionism. Discussions on this list should be helpful in
correcting some of these distortions.

- To these non-Greek scholars I say that basic integrity requires that
concepts such as democracy, popular will, majority rule, national
sovereignty, human rights, as well as invasion, "ethnic cleansing," war
crimes and occupation and the like are elements that apply with regard to
the Cyprus reality just as much as they did/still do in former Yugoslavia
and other places which became areas of such fervent concern of so many
scholars, including some who appear on this list from time to time.

- Most importantly, the Greek Cypriots themselves, in their overwhelming
majority identify with the body of Hellenism. While Mr. Hannay or Mr.
Denktash may have a problem with that, it is a simple fact. The Greeks of
Cyprus, just as those of Macedonia, Epirus, the Pontos, the Peloponnese or
of the Diasporas belong to the world with which this list concerns itself
and to exclude them is to collaborate with political forces that have been
working to distort reality to fit their particular political or national
agendas.

To sum up: it is inconceivable for serious scholars to exclude Cypriot
Hellenism from this list as its problematique is part of Hellenism as a
whole. When it comes to boring excursi the best thing to do is to click to
the next message.

Aristide Caratzas

On 5/24/05 8:40 AM, "Roland Moore" <rolandmo at pacbell.net> wrote:

> With the senders's names removed, here are the
> responses I have received to date to the question
> about forming a separate list on Cyprus issues, where
> the answer is a resounding no.  Each number represents
> a different sender.  The yes responses are in the
> following email.
> 
> 
> 1. I am vehemently opposed to such an arrogant  and
> cavalier suggestion *on principle*!  Most notably, I
> am appalled by the preposterous inference that Cyprus
> should be treated as a separate (ethnocultural) domain
> from the so-called "mainland" or "Helladic" Greece!
> 
> 
> 2. My answer is NO! That the Cyprus issue seems at
> times to dominate the list is obvious, but,
> nonetheless, it IS a Greek issue as well.
> 
> 
> 3. I do not agree with this suggestion unless Modern
> Greek studies do 
> limit
> themselves to the geographical boundaries of present
> day Greece. As 
> they are
> strongly connected with the history and culture of the
> region I believe 
> MGS
> cannot be fruitfully studied by leaving out elements
> of
> Turkish/Ottoman/Balkan & Cypriot history and culture.
> Particularly 
> Cyprus,
> with its large majority of Greek speaking people is of
> great importance 
> in
> the field of MGS. What I do strongly object to and
> what I would like to
> see
> something being done about, is the unacademic, rude
> and disrespectful
> way in
> which some people on the list behave in the
> discussion, for example
> people
> like Mr.' Lyngos'.
> 
> 
> 4. May I suggest that you make public the name of the
> person who made this unbelievable statement. In
> addition to the fact that as I already wrote I do
> consider this statement as fascist and racist, I
> challenge his credentials to participate in this
> forum. His �declaration� that �are really dominating
> the list and taking time and space away from issues
> more directly related to Greece" reveals ignorance and
> arrogance irrelevant to a forum designed to debate
> substantial issues. This is a straightforward attempt
> to impose a censorship regarding one of the most
> serious foreign policy questions of Greece, Turkey and
> by and large Europe.
> 
> I think it is an open demand to throw Kypros out of
> Hellenism. 
> This demand is disguised as a complaint about the
> quality and the 
> relevance of the discussion.
> 
> Who can be the person who feels so comfortable to
> demand such 
> things, even by disguising them as remarks about the
> discusion? 
> I think the conclusion is inevitable: only an Athenian
> Greek will 
> have felt so comfortable to show such arrogance, open
> aggresiveness and open racism towards the Cypriots.
> 
> People expressing even the most wild opinions can
> always defend 
> themselves behind the infallible argument "This is my
> opinion". 
> But there are occasions when the underlying motives of
> the 
> Athenian intelectualls towards Cyprus and the Cypriots
> can be 
> seen in their true nature.  These, for example, are
> cases when 
> their analysis is simply at odds with natural reality.
> 
> For example, one of the reasons presented in the
> 1980's against 
> the presence in Greece of American nuclear weapons was
> that they 
> constitute a threat for neighbouring peoples.  Then a
> list of 
> these neighbouring threatened peoples followed, such
> as the 
> Turkish people and the Arabic countries, ...in which
> Cyprus was 
> defeaningly absent...!!  How can a nuclear weapon in
> Greece 
> thought to be able to hit an Arabic country, while at
> the same 
> time never thought as equally able to hit Cyprus?  I
> claim this 
> was the result of a certain subconcious stance of the
> Athenian 
> Greeks.
> 
> The years passed, and today this subconcious willfull
> blindness 
> for Cyprus became an agressiveness and a racism
> towards Cyprus. 
> Although being such, it even dares to come and speak
> to the open. 
>   I will post to the list a collection of such
> bibliography, 
> where Cyprus is completely ignored.
> 
> 
> -- You are propably aware of the new game that in
> these last 
> years the Greeks love to play around the end of
> October every 
> year.  Namely, the one about children of immigrant
> parents who 
> come to be selected by their schools to carry the flag
> during the 
> celebrations for the 28th of October.  Surely, says
> the Athenian 
> society in general, there shouldn't be any negative
> distiction on 
> that, regardless whether a student is ethnically Greek
> or not. 
> Very well, but then..., what is the responce of these
> same people 
> when faced with Cypriots raising our national flag?
> What is 
> their responce about the relation of Cypriots with
> Hellenism? 
> How can everyone has the right to carry the Greek
> flag, but when 
> Cypriots ask or do the same this is thought to be
> ...nationalism, 
> chauvinism and racism?
> 
> The biggest problem for Modern Greek Studies: the
> adventures of 
> the national conciousnes of the Greeks, especially
> about 
> themselves.  In this regard, nothing can be more
> relevant that 
> Cyprus.
> 
> 
> -- If my poor English help, this 'nitpicking' appears
> to be a 
> rather negative characteristic of the discussion,
> according to 
> this member's claim.  Well then, why didn't he, or
> she, responded 
> on the specific messages he thought were such?
> 
> 
> -- As this is a moderated, academic environment, the
> duty to 
> prove any claim, for example a negative character of
> the 
> discussion, belongs to the one making the claim.  No
> one else is 
> obliged to prove that he is not an elephant.
> 
> 
> -- So, in a Modern Greek Studies List a claim can be
> raised that 
> Cyprus is not very relevant to Greece?  In a list
> intended to be 
> scholarly and moderated a claim can be made on the
> relevance of 
> Cyprus to Greece?  And the person making the claim is
> seriously 
> expecting to receive any answer?  And the moderator of
> the list 
> is forwarding this claim for members to consider?
> 
> Although this person had just made such an absurb
> claim, he or 
> she nevertheless feels comfortable to throw in a
> general, 
> unspecific claim about the quality of the discussion.
> I return 
> the characterization for a bad behaviour in the
> discussion to 
> him, or her.  Please forward this to him, or her.
> 
> 
> -- And then, well, how is it that the moderator of the
> list 
> forwards a message which characterizes the discussion
> as 
> 'nitpicking' and questions its relevance with Greece?
> Wasn't the 
> moderator the one who considered all messages as
> appropriate? 
> Then, why isn't the moderator answer to this member
> himself?
> 
> 
> -- Why are you asking for off-list responces?  May I
> guess that 
> this is because you expected to raise a flood of
> heated 
> reactions?  But then, isn't this a proof of the
> relevance of 
> Cyprus in Modern Greek Studies?  How can a question
> raised about 
> the interest for a separate list, when the interest in
> this list 
> is already so high?
> 
> 
> So, specifically, no, I'm not interested and I am not
> thinking as 
> appropriate any separate list for Cyprus.
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Absolutely Not, on grounds of principle. I did not
> see any provisions
> in the
> list's regulations that issues with special interest
> should be spinned
> off
> as separate email lists. Except if the person who
> suggested the new
> list,
> has issues with the Cypriots, and in his/her message,
> the term 
> "specialists"
> was used to cover exactly his/her problem with
> Cypriots period. I would
> highly recommend that the person discovers the
> "delete" button on their
> keyboard and use it so that their eyes are not
> "glazed". This is such a
> ridiculous grounds to base such a suggestion. The
> "more important 
> issues
> related to Greece" can freely appear whenever they
> choose to on the 
> email
> list, and I don't think there is a quota that leads to
> the domination 
> of the
> messages about Cyprus. Lastly, my suggestion would be
> that instead of
> changing the list, to change its members, if the
> person does not wish
> to
> follow the issues of the list then it has no place
> being in the email
> list.
> 
> 
> 6. The list should be for Hellenes from all over the
> world.
>  
> We should not  divided into Cypriot Hellenes, Cretan
> Hellenes etc
>  
> After all we all have one Nationality
>  
> But different Citizenship
>  
> Just because Cypriot Hellenes are vocal does not mean
> we should be pushed aside.
> 
> 
> 7. I don't think a new list is necessary.  On any
> list, attempts 
> to
> restrict expression create mistrust and bad feelings
> no matter how well
> phrased.  I'm content to delete messages that I feel
> are not worth my 
> time.
> It also makes the worthwhile messages all the more
> satisfying to read.
> 
> 
> 8. I think someone ought to point out to the whinger
> who prompted your
> message that Cyprus is as much a part of the Greek
> world as Athens.
> 
> I am shocked that you have deemed it appropriate to
> give this divisive
> suggestion any serious consideration.
>  
> 
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