From JUNESAM at aol.com Wed Jan 1 21:24:36 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:51 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Chronia Polla Message-ID: <70.28868419.2b452714@aol.com> Chronia Polla June S ----------------- His Big Fat Greek Novel Is Narrated by a Hermaphrodite "Middlesex" is a novel of metamorphoses, of "common human experiences exaggerated to the level of myth," as the author, Jeffrey Eugenides, put it in a recent interview. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/01/books/01EUGE.html?todaysheadlines From JUNESAM at aol.com Thu Jan 2 09:32:36 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:51 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] "Laughing and Grief" Message-ID: <107.1d66d3ba.2b45d1b4@aol.com> I found this quote today quite amusing - especially contemplating all the "Grief "engendered by Lewis Carroll's friend Mr Liddell June Samaras >>> BLURB: "When Alice asks the Mock Turtle what he was taught in school, his list, taking in 'Reeling and Writhing,' 'Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision,' 'Mystery, ancient and modern,' 'Drawling,Stretching, and Fainting in Coils,' ends with the Classical master's subjects, 'Laughing and Grief.' After we register the pun on Latin and Greek, we uncover the profundity of the remark: Laughing and Grief - like the other attitudes and acts of the list - are things that we learn, that are taught to us as children by the adult world.>>>> From JUNESAM at aol.com Thu Jan 2 09:34:32 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:51 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] "Laughing and Grief" Message-ID: <165.18f76515.2b45d228@aol.com> Sorry - the posting was really meant for the Classics list ! I found this quote today quite amusing - especially contemplating all the "Grief "engendered by Lewis Carroll's friend Mr Liddell June Samaras From baloglou at Oswego.EDU Fri Jan 3 03:20:30 2003 From: baloglou at Oswego.EDU (George Baloglou) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:51 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: Cyprus: the North is boiling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100002_27/12/2002_24613 > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2607099.stm > > [I would be interested to know the degree of Turkish settlers' interest > and/or participation at such activities...] ... and whether or not this and more recent developments (see below) are going to have a positive influence on Greek-Cypriot attitudes toward the Anan Plan (as the 'game' has changed considerably after Decembewr 12)... http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100002_03/01/2003_24824 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2621803.stm [Interesting how BBC presents the situation -- no praise for the Greek side!] Best wishes for 2003, George Baloglou From LYNGOS at aol.com Fri Jan 3 05:37:30 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:51 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: Cyprus: the North is boiling Message-ID: <46.3359a941.2b46ec1a@aol.com> In a message dated 1/3/03 03:22:39 Pacific Standard Time, baloglou@Oswego.EDU writes: > ... and whether or not this and more recent developments (see below) are > going to have a positive influence on Greek-Cypriot attitudes toward the > Anan Plan (as the 'game' has changed considerably after Decembewr 12)... > > The American-English plan was ready and it is to be served any time, as soon as the two parties will declare that can not agree. Erdogan received his blessings from Washington and he will become the new Prime Minister, under the watchfull eyes of the Turkish Generals. Powell declared ready and "willing" to intervene as soon as the first negative reactions from Turkey and Northern Cyprus arised. The stakes are too many, too high for Europe to do anything in Cyprus, especially a Socilist Europe, let alone the UN. Cyprus is too close to American Interests for having a UN or European solution, without involving Turkey. Her President already declared, "we are ready for the EU, we are ready now". Predictions? In the American plan they will be conditions, if not for an immediate admission of turkey to the EU, at least much sooner than 2004. Caspian oil, Iraq, Israel, and few more things, can not wait for the Cypriots to find a solution. They had time since 1955, what might make them change attitude now? Regards to all..............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030103/811fb641/attachment.html From iatridesj1 at southernct.edu Sat Jan 4 09:25:23 2003 From: iatridesj1 at southernct.edu (John Iatrides) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:51 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Conference on the paidomazoma Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030104120636.00aa6598@mail.southernct.edu> THE CHILDREN REFUGEES FROM GREECE IN EASTERN AND CENTRAL EUROPE AFTER WORLD WAR II Conference organized by the Joseph Karolyi Foundation Karolyi Mansion, Fehervarcsurgo, Hungary 3-4 October 2003 Speakers: Ilios Yannakakis, Iakovos Michailidis, Maria Bontila, Anthoula Botou, Pavel Hradecny, Karel Koneczny, Ireneusz Slupowski, Katerina Koutsogiannaki, E. Voutira, Aigli Brouskou, Riki van Boeschoten, Stefan Troebst, Loring Danforth, Richard Clogg For more information and the preliminary program contact Angelica Karolyi * * * * * From LYNGOS at aol.com Sun Jan 5 04:21:34 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:51 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Conference on the paidomazoma Message-ID: <67.65a9cd6.2b497d4e@aol.com> In a message dated 1/4/03 09:19:47 Pacific Standard Time, iatridesj1@southernct.edu writes: > > THE CHILDREN REFUGEES FROM GREECE > IN EASTERN AND CENTRAL EUROPE AFTER WORLD WAR II > How the "Children Refugees from Greece" can be the same ones from the "Paidomazoma"? Those children from the Paidomazoma were KIDNAPPED, the ones having the conference, left VOLUNTARILY with their Communist families, after they took the arms against Hellas, attempting to annex Makedonia to the Soviet system of Socialist Republics. The two "terms" are incompatible. So Mr. Iatrides, what is this conference, one for the KIDNAPPED ones, or one for those Communists? Regards to all............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030105/9677f984/attachment.html From aleontis at umich.edu Mon Jan 6 08:08:01 2003 From: aleontis at umich.edu (Artemis Leontis) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Lecture by journalist and speechwriter Paul Glastris Message-ID: <200301061608.LAA29679@changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu> The UM Modern Greek Program Presents: A lecture by Paul Glastris Speechwriting, Ancient and Modern Friday, January 10, 2003 at 4:30 Michigan League, Michigan Room Paul Glastris is the editor-in-chief of The Washington Monthly as well as a senior fellow at the Western Policy Center, a nonprofit institute focusing on Eastern Mediterranean security issues. His work has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The New Republic and he has been a guest political commentator on CNN, Fox, NPR, and C-SPAN. Glastris also worked as a special assistant and senior speechwriter to President Bill Clinton. He wrote over 200 speeches for the President on subjects ranging from education to health care to the budget. In November 1999, Glastris traveled with Clinton to Turkey and Greece and wrote the Presidents landmark address to the Greek people. What is a political speech? How does a major leader address the people? What makes such a public occasion memorable? An eminent journalist, Paul Glastris, will address these issues by focusing on speechmaking in democratic Athens, ancient and modern. He will draw on the speech of Pericles during the Peloponnesian War and that of President Clinton during his trip to Greece. In the first case, the historian Thucydides acted as the writer since we have Pericles talk in his words. In the latter, Glastris, who worked at the White House, was the actual writer of Clintons well-known talk. Furthermore, the ancient model had special resonance for Glastris as he composed the Presidents speech since he is of Greek descent. In general, Glastris will reflect on the responsibilities and pitfalls of leadership in a democratic society. This event is free and open to the public. There will be a reception at the Michigan League. Co-sponsored by the Department of Classical Studies, the Constantine A. Tsangadas Trust of the Rackham Graduate School, and the Foundation for Modern Greek Studies. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Anne Shore Program Assistant for Modern Greek & Classical Studies 2132 Angell Hall (734) 936-6099 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030106/e9ab869d/attachment.html From shoffman at rmi.net Mon Jan 6 10:44:10 2003 From: shoffman at rmi.net (Susanna Hoffman) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] a lost friend Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I'm trying to locate an friend in Greece I have lost track of. She is an architect who trained in Berkeley. Her maiden name is Elsa (from Elizabeth) Papadimitriou. I have no idea if she married or changed her name. Her father was a member of parliment from Naplion. I lost all my old addresses in a disaster and have not been able to locate her. I assume she lives in or near Athens. Thanks for your help. Susanna Hoffman From JUNESAM at aol.com Mon Jan 6 11:43:02 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Greek Bureaucracies - rant !!! Message-ID: In late December I needed to get some information from Greece, and so,now that both the Christmas AND the New Year holidays are over, I tried today to contact the Greek Consulate in Toronto. Not only was there no one there at ALL to handle ANY business, but one could not even leave a voice mail message - the only reply was a canned voice informing callers that the voice-mail boxes were all full, and to call back on another day. What would happen to any unfortunate Greek citizen who needed some official assistance in an emergency ? My particular enquiry is not particularly time sensitive, but it has been 2 weeks since I first received this question, and "I" like to respond in a reasonably timely manner to my clients (I assumed no service was likely to be available from Dec 20th onwards, but hoped that life & business had been resuscitated by now,even in Greece ) This is not the first instance where I have been unable to get a response from the Consulate. In late summer there was a situation where the person I need to speak to was on vacation in Greece, and that no-one could help me because : (a) That person had not delegated their duties to anyone else during their absence (b) The office they used was locked up (at least that is what I was told) so no one could access their files for information. (If this is true then it does not reflect a high degree of either professionalism or good staff mangement in the department) I did eventually get information from other sources, but it is time consuming and frustrating to have to go elsewhere when there is an agency here that,one assumes, is mandated to provide such services, but which is not always a satisfactory resource (Thank you to all the MGSA list members and others who answer such questions for me, and thanks also to the tribe of clever web-masters in Greece who have created some excellent internet sites which compensate greatly for the above lacunae) Could someone in Athens somehow convey this situation to the powers that be in the Ministry responsible ? Points to be considered : 1] Life and business in Canada & elswhere (and potential need of consular services ) does NOT go into total hibernation during Greek public holidays. 2] If all the voice mail boxes are full on a Monday morning it might indicate (even to the most unobservant civil servant ) that citizen demand for services is of sufficient volume to merit attention, and that appropriate arrangements to handle their needs might have to be made - even if only to arrange for some additional capacity in the voice mail software to accomodate the number of enquiries apparently requiring recording. 3] It might also indicate (to the more astute observer) that additional staff, resources and suitable opening hours might be needed,too to actually ANSWER all that backlog of enquiries ! Just venting because I am sometimes just plain fed up of apologizing for, and trying to explain away, the inadequate and belated reactions of some business and government agencies in Greece to enquiries that COULD BE and SHOULD BE handled expeditiously in the age of e-mail and internet. Chronia Polla !!! (Now : how about some good New Years Resolutions !) June S From mnicholas at earthlink.net Mon Jan 6 13:32:45 2003 From: mnicholas at earthlink.net (Maria Nicholas) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: Greek Bureaucracies - rant !!! In-Reply-To: <20030106200005.21185.29810.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> Message-ID: Hi June, As a relative "lurker" who has followed this list for a while, I would have expected you to be used to this type of behavior from a Greek consulate! This kind of mind-boggling bureaucracy is one of the major reasons I have a love/hate relationship with the country. Although I couldn't be prouder to be Greek, there have been many times where I have come close to hole-in-the-wall-punching, absolute-maniacal-screaming insanity when dealing with these types of things. Unfortunately, it usually doesn't make much of a difference. :( It's ten times worse when you're there, too. Greece is a great place to be until you have to get something done. And God help you if you should happen to fall ill and be in need of medical assistance! You had better have your "fakelaki" ready. Something you may not have considered, though, is that today is the Epiphany -- another public holiday in Greece, and an important one at that. Of course, what this means is that the Xmas/New Year's break is extended even further! Anyway, I hope your ranting made you feel better and best of luck in getting your matter squared away! Sincerely, Maria *** on 1/6/03 3:00 PM, mgsa-l-request@uci.edu at mgsa-l-request@uci.edu wrote: > Message: 3 > From: JUNESAM@aol.com > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:43:02 EST > To: MGSA-L@uci.edu > Subject: [MGSA-L] Greek Bureaucracies - rant !!! > > In late December I needed to get some information from Greece, and > so,now that both the Christmas AND the New Year holidays are over, > I tried today to contact the Greek Consulate in Toronto. Not only > was there no one there at ALL to handle ANY business, but one > could not even leave a voice mail message - the only reply was a > canned voice informing callers that the voice-mail boxes were all full, > and to call back on another day. > > What would happen to any unfortunate Greek citizen who > needed some official assistance in an emergency ? > > My particular enquiry is not particularly time sensitive, but it has been > 2 weeks since I first received this question, and "I" like to respond > in a reasonably timely manner to my clients (I assumed no service > was likely to be available from Dec 20th onwards, but hoped that > life & business had been resuscitated by now,even in Greece ) > > This is not the first instance where I have been unable to get a response > from the Consulate. In late summer there was a situation where the person > I need to speak to was on vacation in Greece, and that no-one could help > me because : > > (a) That person had not delegated their duties to anyone else > during their absence > (b) The office they used was locked up (at least that is what > I was told) so no one could access their files for information. > > (If this is true then it does not reflect a high degree of either > professionalism or good staff mangement in the department) > > I did eventually get information from other sources, but it is time > consuming and frustrating to have to go elsewhere when there > is an agency here that,one assumes, is mandated to provide > such services, but which is not always a satisfactory resource > (Thank you to all the MGSA list members and others who answer > such questions for me, and thanks also to the tribe of clever > web-masters in Greece who have created some excellent > internet sites which compensate greatly for the above lacunae) > > Could someone in Athens somehow convey this situation > to the powers that be in the Ministry responsible ? > > Points to be considered : > > 1] Life and business in Canada & elswhere (and potential need of > consular services ) does NOT go into total hibernation during > Greek public holidays. > > 2] If all the voice mail boxes are full on a Monday morning > it might indicate (even to the most unobservant civil servant ) > that citizen demand for services is of sufficient volume to merit > attention, and that appropriate arrangements to handle their > needs might have to be made - even if only to arrange for some > additional capacity in the voice mail software to accomodate > the number of enquiries apparently requiring recording. > > 3] It might also indicate (to the more astute observer) that additional > staff, resources and suitable opening hours might be needed,too > to actually ANSWER all that backlog of enquiries ! > > Just venting because I am sometimes just plain fed up of > apologizing for, and trying to explain away, the inadequate and > belated reactions of some business and government agencies in > Greece to enquiries that COULD BE and SHOULD BE handled > expeditiously in the age of e-mail and internet. > > Chronia Polla !!! > > (Now : how about some good New Years Resolutions !) > > June S > > > --__--__-- From YalieFan at aol.com Mon Jan 6 13:09:42 2003 From: YalieFan at aol.com (YalieFan@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Greek Bureaucracies - rant !!! Message-ID: <79.66383e2.2b4b4a96@aol.com> June, You are so right! Dealing with any type of government official or ministry in Greece is totally futile, frustrating and enervating. They either do not work because a) they're on strike b) they're having their morning/noon/afternoon coffee c) you have just waited 45 minutes in the wrong queue d) it is not their job e) you do not have the required kartosima/ensima/ipografes on your documents. Let's just admit it right at the beginning: you can not get any thing of an official nature done either in person, or, heaven forbid, on the phone! Never, not on a eorti, a regular work day, in August, after 1:00 p.m. or ever!!!!!! Let's try to analyze the situation a bit. Greek businesses such as banks and offices are incapable of organizing those waiting in line into any semblance of order. The different workstations are never labelled with any kind of signage indicating where you should go for what type of business. So everyone just pushes and shoves up to each worker only to find out that he or she doesn't do whatever you might need to have done. Believe me, I speak from experience! In any case, good luck with your business at the consulate- may it be finished before your hair turns white or your clients give up and decide to forget whatever it was! Yours sincerely, Marianna Steriadis P.S. I just came from Epiphany Celebration in Tarpon Springs, Florida, where Neotis Koulianos got the cross, after almost 2 minutes in the murky waters of Spring Bayou. Usually the dive for the cross lasts all of 10 seconds. PP.S. Thanks for ordering Who Pays the Boatman for me from Greece last year. It was a pleasure doing business with you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030106/b379791b/attachment.html From info at caratzas.com Mon Jan 6 13:27:45 2003 From: info at caratzas.com (J S Philobiblos, Sr.) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Revised Anan Plan Message-ID: Can someone kindly direct to a site where one can find the text (preferably complete) of the *revised* Anan Plan, as that emerged around the time of the Copenhagen Conference. With thanks, in advance, Aristide Caratzas From mnicholas at mac.com Mon Jan 6 13:26:00 2003 From: mnicholas at mac.com (Maria Nicholas) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: Greek Bureaucracies - rant !!! In-Reply-To: <20030106200005.21185.29810.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> Message-ID: Hi June, As a relative "lurker" who has followed this list for a while, I would have expected you to be used to this type of behavior from a Greek consulate! This kind of mind-boggling bureaucracy is one of the major reasons I have a love/hate relationship with the country. Although I couldn't be prouder to be Greek, there have been many times where I have come close to hole-in-the-wall-punching, absolute-maniacal-screaming insanity when dealing with these types of things. Unfortunately, it usually doesn't make much of a difference. :( It's ten times worse when you're there, too. Greece is a great place to be until you have to get something done. And God help you if you should happen to fall ill and be in need of medical assistance! You had better have your "fakelaki" ready. Something you may not have considered, though, is that today is the Epiphany -- another public holiday in Greece, and an important one at that. Of course, what this means is that the Xmas/New Year's break is extended even further! Anyway, I hope your ranting made you feel better and best of luck in getting your matter squared away! Sincerely, Maria *** on 1/6/03 3:00 PM, mgsa-l-request@uci.edu at mgsa-l-request@uci.edu wrote: > Message: 3 > From: JUNESAM@aol.com > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:43:02 EST > To: MGSA-L@uci.edu > Subject: [MGSA-L] Greek Bureaucracies - rant !!! > > In late December I needed to get some information from Greece, and > so,now that both the Christmas AND the New Year holidays are over, > I tried today to contact the Greek Consulate in Toronto. Not only > was there no one there at ALL to handle ANY business, but one > could not even leave a voice mail message - the only reply was a > canned voice informing callers that the voice-mail boxes were all full, > and to call back on another day. > > What would happen to any unfortunate Greek citizen who > needed some official assistance in an emergency ? > > My particular enquiry is not particularly time sensitive, but it has been > 2 weeks since I first received this question, and "I" like to respond > in a reasonably timely manner to my clients (I assumed no service > was likely to be available from Dec 20th onwards, but hoped that > life & business had been resuscitated by now,even in Greece ) > > This is not the first instance where I have been unable to get a response > from the Consulate. In late summer there was a situation where the person > I need to speak to was on vacation in Greece, and that no-one could help > me because : > > (a) That person had not delegated their duties to anyone else > during their absence > (b) The office they used was locked up (at least that is what > I was told) so no one could access their files for information. > > (If this is true then it does not reflect a high degree of either > professionalism or good staff mangement in the department) > > I did eventually get information from other sources, but it is time > consuming and frustrating to have to go elsewhere when there > is an agency here that,one assumes, is mandated to provide > such services, but which is not always a satisfactory resource > (Thank you to all the MGSA list members and others who answer > such questions for me, and thanks also to the tribe of clever > web-masters in Greece who have created some excellent > internet sites which compensate greatly for the above lacunae) > > Could someone in Athens somehow convey this situation > to the powers that be in the Ministry responsible ? > > Points to be considered : > > 1] Life and business in Canada & elswhere (and potential need of > consular services ) does NOT go into total hibernation during > Greek public holidays. > > 2] If all the voice mail boxes are full on a Monday morning > it might indicate (even to the most unobservant civil servant ) > that citizen demand for services is of sufficient volume to merit > attention, and that appropriate arrangements to handle their > needs might have to be made - even if only to arrange for some > additional capacity in the voice mail software to accomodate > the number of enquiries apparently requiring recording. > > 3] It might also indicate (to the more astute observer) that additional > staff, resources and suitable opening hours might be needed,too > to actually ANSWER all that backlog of enquiries ! > > Just venting because I am sometimes just plain fed up of > apologizing for, and trying to explain away, the inadequate and > belated reactions of some business and government agencies in > Greece to enquiries that COULD BE and SHOULD BE handled > expeditiously in the age of e-mail and internet. > > Chronia Polla !!! > > (Now : how about some good New Years Resolutions !) > > June S > > > --__--__-- From ssm at panafonet.gr Tue Jan 7 03:50:24 2003 From: ssm at panafonet.gr (Simeon Magliveras) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: rant References: <20030106200005.21185.29810.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> Message-ID: <001001c2b642$f7b4e740$cc22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> The key question......Could someone in Athens somehow convey this situation to the powers that be in the Ministry responsible ? Does anyone take responsability?? and Does anyone really know WHO is resonsible , in the first place?? kali xponia ssm From constantinidis.1 at osu.edu Tue Jan 7 06:14:51 2003 From: constantinidis.1 at osu.edu (Stratos Constantinidis) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Postal address and/or e-mail address Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030107091326.00ca9d90@pop.service.ohio-state.edu> Does anyone know the postal address or the e-mail address of Susanne-Sophia Spiliotis? From aleontis at umich.edu Wed Jan 8 08:28:54 2003 From: aleontis at umich.edu (Artemis Leontis) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <200301081628.LAA05952@changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu> From: Sevasti Trubeta Date: 06.01.2003 Subject: Conf: Minorities in Greece - historical issues and new perspectives Historisches Seminar Universit?t Freiburg i.Br., Osteuropa Institut Freie Universit?t Berlin 30.01.2003-01.02.2003, Berlin Supported by Fritz- Thyssen- Stiftung (Cologne) Place of the Conference: Clubhaus Freie Universitaet Berlin Goetherstra?e 49 D-14163 Berlin (Underground Station "Krumme Lanke") Teilnahme nur nach Voranmeldung PROGRAMME Thursday, 30th January 2003 9:45 Opening Holm Sundhaussen (Berlin) Vice-Director of Osteuropa Institut, Freie Universit?t Berlin Director of Department: History and Culture 10:00 Peter Haslinger (Munich) Imagined Territories and Ethnoscapes - Ways to Conceptualize the Role of Minorities in International Settings Discussion 10:30 Christian Promitzer (Graz) The Body of the Other: "Racial Science" and Minorities in Southeastern Europe Discussion 11:00 Coffee break 11:30 Vemund Aarbakke (Oslo/Athens) Adjusting to the new international framework for minority protection - challenges for the Greek state and its minorities Discussion 12:00 Lunch Break 15:30 Konstantinos Tsitselikis (Salonika) Legal aspects of religious and linguistic otherness in Greece Discussion 16:00 Georgios Mavrommatis (Salonika/Athens) Constructing identities for the Thracian Muslim youth: the role of education Discussion 16:30 Coffee break 17.00 Tasos Kostopoulos (Athens) Counting the Other: official census and classified statistics in Greece (1830-2001) Discussion 17:30 Philip Carabott (London) The politics of constructing the "other": the Greek state and its Slavic-speaking citizens, ca. 1923-ca. 1949 Discussion 18:00 End Friday, 31st January 2003 9:30 Riki van Boeschoten (Volos/Brussels) "Bratstvo i Jedinstvo"? Macedonian political refugees in Eastern Europe Discussion 10:00 Georgia Kretsi (Berlin) >From landholding to landlessness. The Relationship between the Property and Legal Status of the Cham Muslim Albanians Discussion 10:30 Coffee break 11:00 Dora Lafazani (Athens) Migration as a tool in state's, group's and individual's strategies Discussion 11:30 Sevasti Trubeta (Berlin/Freiburg) 'Minorization' and 'Ethnicization' in the Greek society: comparative Perspectives on Moslem Migrants and the Moslem Minority Discussion 12:00 lunch Break 15:00 Christian Voss (Freiburg) Sociolinguistic perspectives for the Slavic minorities in Greek Thrace and Greek Macedonia Discussion 15:30 Alexandra Ioannidou (Athens) Linguistic research in Greece: The slavic dialects in Western and Central Macedonia. First observations and comments Discussion 16:00 Coffee break 16:30 Claudia Rossini (Zurich) Graecophiles and Macedonophiles: The clash of identities at village level Discussion 17:00 End Saturday, 1st February 2003 9:30 Thede Kahl (Vienna) Religious, linguistic and ethnic labels. The case of the Vlachs Discussion 10:00 Evangelos Karagiannis (Berlin) Pomaks of Bulgaria and Greece - comparative issues Discussion 10:30 Coffee break 11:00 Concluding Discussion 12:00 End of the conference For information, please contact the following e-mail addresses: Dr. Sevasti Trubeta trubeta.sevasti@berlin.de Dr. Christian Voss Christian.Voss@geschichte.uni-freiburg.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030108/1e26c865/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Wed Jan 8 09:27:17 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <195.1388eeb8.2b4db975@aol.com> In a message dated 1/8/03 08:31:55 Pacific Standard Time, aleontis@umich.edu writes: > From: Sevasti Trubeta > Date: 06.01.2003 > Subject: Conf: Minorities in Greece - historical issues and new perspectives > Reading the subject, one must wonder as to what constitutes a minority, especially one in Greece. Is the different language an indication of the existance of a minority? But then, we should take care of tenths of minorities from Asia and Africa since their numbers are much higher to the so-called "minorities" appearing under discussion in the programme. Are to be considered as Greek "minorities" ONLY the ex-enemies and neighbors that FAILED to conquer and thresh Hellas? Or maybe as Greek "minorities" are to be considered the ones that actually have an anti-Hellenic agenda aiming, under the excuse of Democratization, like new fifth-columnists, to disrupt the normal advance of Hellas in the World scene? Why, WHY should such a conference consider "Thracian Muslims", "Slavic speaking citizens", "Makedonian political refugees in Eastern Europe", "Cham Muslim Albanians", "Vlachs", and "Pomacks"? Do they have superior numbers from the Pakistanis in Greece? The Egyptians? The Palestenians? The Americans? The Italians and so on? And yet, "certain" people keep stirring old wounds, without offering any numbers from inside Greece. But then, such a thing is typical of the same old propagandists attempting to convince people of a fire where there is not even smoke. Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030108/9ac1c0d6/attachment.html From ejt1 at columbia.edu Wed Jan 8 09:41:58 2003 From: ejt1 at columbia.edu (Elias J Theodoracopoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece In-Reply-To: <195.1388eeb8.2b4db975@aol.com> References: <195.1388eeb8.2b4db975@aol.com> Message-ID: The matter is extremely complex and better approached through the extensive scholarship to date. Start with Michael Hertzfeld's books, especially, _Ours Once More_ (U. of Texas, 1982). Please avoid stereotypes and sloganeering. EJTh On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 LYNGOS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/8/03 08:31:55 Pacific Standard Time, aleontis@umich.edu > writes: > > > > From: Sevasti Trubeta > > Date: 06.01.2003 > > Subject: Conf: Minorities in Greece - historical issues and new perspectives > > > > Reading the subject, one must wonder as to what constitutes a minority, > especially one in Greece. > Is the different language an indication of the existance of a minority? > But then, we should take care of tenths of minorities from Asia and Africa > since their numbers are much higher to the so-called "minorities" appearing > under discussion in the programme. > Are to be considered as Greek "minorities" ONLY the ex-enemies and neighbors > that FAILED to conquer and thresh Hellas? > Or maybe as Greek "minorities" are to be considered the ones that actually > have an anti-Hellenic agenda aiming, under the excuse of Democratization, > like new fifth-columnists, to disrupt the normal advance of Hellas in the > World scene? > Why, WHY should such a conference consider "Thracian Muslims", "Slavic > speaking citizens", "Makedonian political refugees in Eastern Europe", "Cham > Muslim Albanians", "Vlachs", and "Pomacks"? > Do they have superior numbers from the Pakistanis in Greece? The Egyptians? > The Palestenians? The Americans? The Italians and so on? > And yet, "certain" people keep stirring old wounds, without offering any > numbers from inside Greece. > But then, such a thing is typical of the same old propagandists attempting to > convince people of a fire where there is not even smoke. > > Regards to all.............L. > > "Vlachs, the autochthonous > of the Hellenic peninsula". > From AKarpathak at aol.com Wed Jan 8 10:48:53 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <02130526.08FF324F.09E588BC@aol.com> Lyngo, Americans tend to understand and define a minority by following 5 general criteria: i. unequal treatment, unequal power ii. selected physical and/or cultural items distinguishing members of group from general population iii. shared sense of history, experiences, belonging iv. membership in the group is ascribed, i.e., determined and defined by dominant/more powerful group/s, not a selected/voluntary, i.e., achieved status v. (although not in all minority groups, e.g., women,), minority group members tend to practice endogamy Now I would be interested in seeing if sociologists and other scholars in Greece use this general definition of minority or if different, or if some characteristics, etc. Anyone wanna address this? Thanks, Anna K. In a message dated 1/8/2003 12:27:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, LYNGOS@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 1/8/03 08:31:55 Pacific Standard Time, aleontis@umich.edu >writes: > > >> From: ? ?Sevasti Trubeta >> Date: ? ?06.01.2003 >> Subject: Conf: Minorities in Greece - historical issues and new perspectives >> > >Reading the subject, one must wonder as to what constitutes a minority, >especially one in Greece. >Is the different language an indication of the existance of a minority? >But then, we should take care of tenths of minorities from Asia and Africa >since their numbers are much higher to the so-called "minorities" appearing >under discussion in the programme. >Are to be considered as Greek "minorities" ONLY the ex-enemies and neighbors >that FAILED to conquer and thresh Hellas? >Or maybe as Greek "minorities" are to be considered the ones that actually >have an anti-Hellenic agenda aiming, under the excuse of ?Democratization, >like new fifth-columnists, to disrupt the normal advance of Hellas in the >World scene? >Why, WHY should such a conference consider "Thracian Muslims", "Slavic >speaking citizens", "Makedonian political refugees in Eastern Europe", "Cham >Muslim Albanians", "Vlachs", and "Pomacks"? >Do they have superior numbers from the Pakistanis in Greece? The Egyptians? >The Palestenians? The Americans? The Italians and so on? >And yet, "certain" people keep stirring old wounds, without offering any >numbers from inside Greece. >But then, such a thing is typical of the same old propagandists attempting to >convince people of a fire where there is not even smoke. > >Regards to all.............L. > >"Vlachs, the autochthonous >of the Hellenic peninsula". > From AKarpathak at aol.com Wed Jan 8 10:55:25 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Query on conferences Message-ID: <2F73709A.22872AB3.09E588BC@aol.com> Greetings to all: I have a question: first, every once in a while there will be a posting on this list re: upcoming conferences, which are either one or two days away or announcements of finalized/organized conferences. Is there a "place"/site where such conferences/calls for papers are announced well in advance? There's lots of good/interesting stuff going on on the other side of the ocean of where I'm located and also lots of good and interesting stuff on this side, but... somehow we don't seem to be able to "communicate" too well, despite cyberspace!!! I know that others on this list also have this question or sense of frustration also. ugghghgh!!!! ::)) Anna K. In a message dated 1/8/2003 12:27:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, LYNGOS@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 1/8/03 08:31:55 Pacific Standard Time, aleontis@umich.edu >writes: > > >> From: ? ?Sevasti Trubeta >> Date: ? ?06.01.2003 >> Subject: Conf: Minorities in Greece - historical issues and new perspectives >> > > From AKarpathak at aol.com Wed Jan 8 11:02:02 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Fwd: H-Gender-MidEast: =?ISO-8859-1?B?oE5FSCBHcmFudHMgZm9yIFRyYW5zbGF0aW9uIFByb2plY3RzIGluIFByb3Nl?= Message-ID: <0A241C1F.7EFF3D1D.09E588BC@aol.com> In case some are interested. Anna K. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Martina Rieker Subject: H-Gender-MidEast: NEH Grants for Translation Projects in Prose Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 06:29:41 +0200 Size: 3749 Url: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030108/383b88bb/attachment.mht From LYNGOS at aol.com Wed Jan 8 11:31:41 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:52 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <2f.32ecbda7.2b4dd69d@aol.com> In a message dated 1/8/03 10:48:53 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak writes: > Lyngo, Americans tend to understand and define a minority by following 5 > general criteria: > But then, the "minorities" included in the programm are really ahead from tenths of "other" minorities in Greece. Why such conference is examining "minorities" of Greece who actually are ahead of many other minorities, based upon your definition, and disregards the REAL minorities? Thats my whole point. Regards to all............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030108/afc5a6d7/attachment.html From hohlwein at mindspring.com Wed Jan 8 09:15:47 2003 From: hohlwein at mindspring.com (Laura Hohlwein) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] All Night Iliad Reading Message-ID: The Readers of Homer are delighted to announce the first East Coast all-night, participatory reading of The Iliad, Homer?s great war (or anti-war) poem. It will begin Friday, March 7, at 7PM and continue until finished, into the morning of Saturday, March 8th, 2003 at the Angel Orensanz Foundation for the Arts, located in Manhattan?s Lower East Side. The Angel Orensanz Foundation for the Arts is a superb venue for the reading. Historically the oldest reformed synagogue in New York City, it has been lovingly restored and is now a beautiful, much used, and celebrated space for ceremonies and for the arts. We recommend advance ticket purchase, as attendance will be limited. The admission fee is $65.00 per person. The proceeds from this non-profit event will pay for live music, dinner, non-alcoholic beverages, breakfast, the use of the Orensanz Building, and the purchase of portable reclining canvas chairs (which will help keep you comfortable overnight and which you are invited to keep). Attendees may bring alcoholic beverages for themselves if desired, and additional potluck foods and snacks if they choose. There will be 100 separate passages read, and the first one hundred people to sign up for the event and who want to read, will be given one of those passages in advance. Each passage takes roughly six minutes to read. Recently, there has been a resurgence in the popularity of Homer; however, few ever hear or speak his lines. This reading is not a performance, not theater. It is a participation that borders on ritual. Through this contemporary practice of the ancient oral tradition, you will experience both the power of great poetry and the community created by sharing it. Please know that there is no wrong reading. However you read will be the right way. The only rule is that you may not apologize, you may not comment. Only Homer comments. And how! Ancient as he is is, he understands the travails of our current world. And he has much to say about rage and violence and sorrow. And also about the beauty of peace. If you wish to attend, send in your fee as soon as possible to reserve your space. Please include a note indicating clearly if you would like to read. Please also include a self-addressed stamped envelope so we can return your assigned passage from Richmond Lattimore's great translation. We are delighted when children read. Should you have a young person who wants to participate, let us know and we will select a non-violent passage for him or her. The Iliad is not only tragic and brutal; it is also gentle and very tender. So, join us. We promise an unusual and thrilling experience, through dark hours of the night, in the safety of a hallowed space, in the company of those keeping an ancient flame alive. Sincerely yours, The Readers of Homer ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Please send your check, made payable to: The Readers of Homer 1160 Fifth Avenue - Suite 410 New York, NY 10029 For more information call 917-597-2520 or see http://www.hohlwein.com/homer.html Please feel free to forward this announcement to anyone who might be interested. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030108/4c23952e/attachment.html From JUNESAM at aol.com Wed Jan 8 16:40:12 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] New Greek Minority Message-ID: <67.6b6119d.2b4e1eec@aol.com> Will this start a new ethnic minority ? Will it be Greek ? Apart from the ethical, legal, medical and moral considerations of the concept, will there not be some theological complications too - does this not create a new category of Virgin Births ? (Stirring the pot a little, I know !!) June S ----------------------------- [02] YOUNG GREEKWOMAN ABROAD TO BIRTH CLONED BABY A young Greek woman living abroad, 24 year old Marina Kokolios, stated that she will give birth to a cloned baby. According to TGA News, Marina Kokolios is the daughter of Clonaid chief executive Brigitte Boisselier, who is a member of the Raelian movement and had announced recently, causing strong reactions, that the first cloned baby has been born. Boisselier was married to a Greek and has three children. One of them is Marina Kokolios, a student and a member of the same movement which maintains that humans were cloned by aliens 25.000 years ago. From AKarpathak at aol.com Thu Jan 9 04:39:23 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities inGreece Message-ID: <5301C11D.7539247A.09E588BC@aol.com> Samuel, majority/minority has nothing to do with numbers. It is a relational term, i.e., power relations based; e.g.: Black Africans in South Africa vs. white Africans. Anna K. In a message dated 1/9/2003 1:13:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, Samuel Hassid writes: > ? i am surprised to see that women are considered a minority - they are >the majority !!!!! > >On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 AKarpathak@aol.com wrote: > >> Lyngo, Americans tend to understand and define a minority by following 5 general criteria: >> i. unequal treatment, unequal power >> ii. selected physical and/or cultural items distinguishing members of group from general population >> iii. shared sense of history, experiences, belonging >> iv. membership in the group is ascribed, i.e., determined and defined by dominant/more powerful group/s, not a selected/voluntary, i.e., achieved status >> v. (although not in all minority groups, e.g., women,), minority group members tend to practice endogamy >> >> Now I would be interested in seeing if sociologists and other scholars in Greece use this general definition of minority or if different, or if some characteristics, etc.Anyone wanna address this? >> >> Thanks, >> AnnaK. >> >> In a message dated 1/8/2003 12:27:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, LYNGOS@aol.com writes: >> >> >In a message dated 1/8/03 08:31:55 Pacific Standard Time, aleontis@umich.edu >> >writes: >> > >> > >> >> From: ? ?Sevasti Trubeta >> >> Date: ? ?06.01.2003 >> >> Subject: Conf: Minorities in Greece - historical issues and new perspectives >> >> >> > >> >Reading the subject, one must wonder as to what constitutes a minority, >> >especially one in Greece. >> >Is the different language an indication ofthe existance of a minority? >> >But then, we should take care of tenths of minorities from Asia and Africa >> >since their numbers are much higher to the so-called "minorities" appearing >> >under discussion in the programme. >> >Are to be considered as Greek"minorities" ONLY the ex-enemies and neighbors >> >that FAILED to conquer and thresh Hellas? >> >Or maybe as Greek "minorities" are to be considered the ones that actually >> >have an anti-Hellenic agenda aiming, under the excuse of ?Democratization, >> >likenew fifth-columnists, to disrupt the normal advance of Hellas in the >> >World scene? >> >Why, WHY should such a conference consider "Thracian Muslims", "Slavic >> >speaking citizens", "Makedonian political refugees in Eastern Europe", "Cham >> >Muslim Albanians", "Vlachs", and "Pomacks"? >> >Do they have superior numbers from the Pakistanis in Greece? The Egyptians? >> >The Palestenians? The Americans? The Italians and so on? >> >And yet, "certain" people keep stirring old wounds, without offering any >> >numbers from inside Greece. >> >But then, such a thing is typical of the same old propagandists attempting to >> >convince people of a fire where there is not even smoke. >> > >> >Regards to all.............L. >> > >> >"Vlachs, the autochthonous >> >of the Hellenic peninsula". >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l >> > > From AKarpathak at aol.com Thu Jan 9 04:44:01 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <5DA2DE4C.655ECB7D.09E588BC@aol.com> Lyngo, I'm not sure I get your point. None of the minorities, that at least I saw listed in that conference program, are "ahead" of dominant Greeks on any indicators, e.g., income, education, etc. From my limited understanding of Greek society, they are not found in important positions in mainstream institutions that wield real power, whether these be educational, political or even mass media. Again, my reading of your posting may be off, so please do clarify. Anna K. In a message dated 1/8/2003 2:31:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, LYNGOS@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 1/8/03 10:48:53 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak writes: > > >> Lyngo, Americans tend to understand and define a minority by following 5 >> general criteria: >> > >But then, the "minorities" included in the programm are really ahead from >tenths of "other" minorities in Greece. > >Why such conference is examining "minorities" of Greece who actually are >ahead of many other minorities, based upon your definition, and disregards >the REAL minorities? >Thats my whole point. > >Regards to all............L. > >"Vlachs, the autochthonous >of the Hellenic peninsula". > From LYNGOS at aol.com Thu Jan 9 06:23:27 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <12d.1f97f680.2b4edfdf@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/03 04:46:29 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak@aol.com writes: > Lyngo, I'm not sure I get your point. None of the minorities, that at least > I saw listed in that conference program, are "ahead" of dominant Greeks on > any indicators, e.g., income, education, etc. From my limited > understanding of Greek society, they are not found in important positions > in mainstream institutions that wield real power, whether these be > educational, political or even mass media. > > Again, my reading of your posting may be off, so please do clarify. > > I believe for example that the Pakistanis are a larger minority in Greece than the one "so-called" "Makedonian". After all the "Makedonians" are 4,951 while the number of Pakistanis is tenths of thousands. Should the state consider as a minority, 4,951 people wishing to call themselves a minority only because they have as second language that Slav one? Should the state create, with tax-payers money, schools, facilities, etc.etc. for those 4,951 people? But then, what about the Pakistanis? Or any other group with higher numbers that 4,951? Where are those Vlachs, wanting or for the better considering themselves as a "minority" just because they speak as a second language, one of the Vlachian idioms? But then, in Greece there are 3,000,000 English speaking people! Should we create an English minority? An American one? A Turkish one? An Egyptian? According to, I think it was the first census in Greece, we found that we had thousands of people speaking the Tsakonian dialect, the Arvanite dialect even the Turkish language, I am speaking of hunded of thousands. We decided then to eliminate those dialects and create, we are still creating it, an omogeneous ethnic-national language, since we believed it would be better for the future of our children. So, to consider as a "minority" any group, on the base of linguistics, should not define a "minority" in Greece. And, again, if the group organizing the conference beliefs that in Greece do exist linguistic minorities, should explain to us, HOW COME, in the programme we don't have anything for the English, Italian, Arabic, and so on, "minorities. Do you have an idea? Regards to all............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/b474a72a/attachment.html From afilindra at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 06:25:12 2003 From: afilindra at yahoo.com (Alexandra Filindra) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece In-Reply-To: <5DA2DE4C.655ECB7D.09E588BC@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030109142512.97283.qmail@web41412.mail.yahoo.com> Maybe it would help if we distinguished between indigenous minorities (people who have lived in the area for a long time and have Greek citizenship- such as the Slavmacedonians, the Roma, the Turkophone Muslims, the Pomaks, etc) and transient minorities (such as the illegal and legal aliens who have come to the country in the past decade or so). Both are minorities but each is faced with very different problems and a very different history vis a vis its relationship to the Greek state and the Greek-speaking population. Best, Alexandra --- AKarpathak@aol.com wrote: > Lyngo, I'm not sure I get your point. None of the > minorities, that at least I saw listed in that > conference program, are "ahead" of dominant Greeks > on any indicators, e.g., income, education, etc. > From my limited understanding of Greek society, they > are not found in important positions in mainstream > institutions that wield real power, whether these be > educational, political or even mass media. > > Again, my reading of your posting may be off, so > please do clarify. > > Anna K. > > In a message dated 1/8/2003 2:31:41 PM Eastern > Standard Time, LYNGOS@aol.com writes: > > >In a message dated 1/8/03 10:48:53 Pacific Standard > Time, AKarpathak writes: > > > > > >> Lyngo, Americans tend to understand and define a > minority by following 5 > >> general criteria: > >> > > > >But then, the "minorities" included in the programm > are really ahead from > >tenths of "other" minorities in Greece. > > > >Why such conference is examining "minorities" of > Greece who actually are > >ahead of many other minorities, based upon your > definition, and disregards > >the REAL minorities? > >Thats my whole point. > > > >Regards to all............L. > > > >"Vlachs, the autochthonous > >of the Hellenic peninsula". > > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l ===== "If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?" Albert Einstein Alexandra Filindra Department of Political Science Rutgers University email: afilindra@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From afilindra at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 06:37:57 2003 From: afilindra at yahoo.com (Alexandra Filindra) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece In-Reply-To: <12d.1f97f680.2b4edfdf@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030109143757.80714.qmail@web41415.mail.yahoo.com> Lyngo: It is surely a valid point that it is difficult to determine what is the critical mass that you need (i.e. how many people) to have a minority. However, in most cases, if people have a separate ethnolinguistic tradition and a consciousness of being different, a democratic state should not have the right to impose assimilation on them. The Greek state is not particularly concerned with the transient minorities (except when it comes to issues of crimiinal justice)because government officials believe that the Pakistanis, Filipinos, Polish, Albanians, etc, are not going to be in Greece forever. They will make some money and then leave to go home, or to the US or somewhere else. However, if a significant number of these people develop roots in Greece, have children there who speak Greek and go to Greek schools, they will start to want and expect political rights and recognition. This is what is happening today in most of Western Europe, but Greece hasn't gotten to this point yet. Out of curiosity: where did you find that 4,951 number? Is that how many people voted for "Ouranio Toxo" in one of the last elections? Alexandra --- LYNGOS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/9/03 04:46:29 Pacific Standard > Time, AKarpathak@aol.com > writes: > > > I believe for example that the Pakistanis are a > larger minority in Greece > than the one "so-called" "Makedonian". > After all the "Makedonians" are 4,951 while the > number of Pakistanis is > tenths of thousands. > Should the state consider as a minority, 4,951 > people wishing to call > themselves a minority only because they have as > second language that Slav one? > Should the state create, with tax-payers money, > schools, facilities, etc.etc. > for those 4,951 people? > But then, what about the Pakistanis? > Or any other group with higher numbers that 4,951? > Where are those Vlachs, wanting or for the better > considering themselves as a > "minority" just because they speak as a second > language, one of the Vlachian > idioms? > But then, in Greece there are 3,000,000 English > speaking people! > Should we create an English minority? > An American one? > A Turkish one? > An Egyptian? > According to, I think it was the first census in > Greece, we found that we had > thousands of people speaking the Tsakonian dialect, > the Arvanite dialect even > the Turkish language, I am speaking of hunded of > thousands. We decided then > to eliminate those dialects and create, we are still > creating it, an > omogeneous ethnic-national language, since we > believed it would be better for > the future of our children. > So, to consider as a "minority" any group, on the > base of linguistics, should > not define a "minority" in Greece. > And, again, if the group organizing the conference > beliefs that in Greece do > exist linguistic minorities, should explain to us, > HOW COME, in the programme > we don't have anything for the English, Italian, > Arabic, and so on, > "minorities. > Do you have an idea? > > Regards to all............L. > > "Vlachs, the autochthonous > of the Hellenic peninsula". > ===== "If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?" Albert Einstein Alexandra Filindra Department of Political Science Rutgers University email: afilindra@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From LYNGOS at aol.com Thu Jan 9 06:59:26 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <64.2ad7f07f.2b4ee84e@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/03 06:38:56 Pacific Standard Time, afilindra@yahoo.com writes: > > Lyngo: > It is surely a valid point that it is difficult to > determine what is the critical mass that you need > (i.e. how many people) to have a minority. > > However, in most cases, if people have a separate > ethnolinguistic tradition and a consciousness of being > different, a democratic state should not have the > right to impose assimilation on them.> No one imposed any kind of assimilation to them. They were asked to obey the laws of the land, and if those as you call them "ethnolinguistic traditions" survived, it is the best evidence that assimilation was not imposed on "them". The Greek state > is not particularly concerned with the transient > minorities (except when it comes to issues of > crimiinal justice)because government officials believe > that the Pakistanis, Filipinos, Polish, Albanians, > etc, are not going to be in Greece forever. They will > make some money and then leave to go home, or to the > US or somewhere else. However, if a significant number > of these people develop roots in Greece, have children > there who speak Greek and go to Greek schools, they > will start to want and expect political rights and > recognition. This is what is happening today in most > of Western Europe, but Greece hasn't gotten to this > point yet. > But the point is, that those organizing the conference do not represent Greek groups, they represent themselves, or a very limited number of individuals, in order to be called as a minority. In other words they are attempting to CREATE a movement of minorities, out of local linguistic differences. > > Out of curiosity: where did you find that 4,951 > number? Is that how many people voted for "Ouranio > Toxo" in one of the last elections? > Yes. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/2d6fe754/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Thu Jan 9 07:18:16 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: In a message dated 1/9/03 06:27:09 Pacific Standard Time, afilindra@yahoo.com writes: > Maybe it would help if we distinguished between > indigenous minorities (people who have lived in the > area for a long time and have Greek citizenship- such > as the Slavmacedonians, the Roma, the Turkophone > Muslims, the Pomaks, etc) and transient minorities > (such as the illegal and legal aliens who have come to > Both are > minorities but each is faced with very different > problems and a very different history vis a vis its > relationship to the Greek state and the Greek-speaking > population.> You are attempting to accept a multi-linguistic state, and that is not the case with Greece. Additionally this is not the case with the Conference. If indeed the Conference was aiming in indigenous populations speaking an idiom or other language, why not a reference to the people and their idioms from Megara, Kymh, Lesvos, Ainos, Velvendos, Cyprus, Pontos, Adritsena, Crete, Sparta (Tsakonika)? They all had and have a different dialect, very different from the Greek language. The answer? The conference is aiming in "linguistic minorities" which represent populations that in the past have been in denial of the Hellenic supremacy and /or possession of certain lands, possession that according to them are occupations. Hence my question, where are from these people, and how many are they? Are they Hellenes, or in their vast majority they represent academic institutions and others outside Hellas? What are their aims and reasons? Are they getting paid from someone? By whom? And why? If indeed they feel that there are "minority groups" within Hellas, why not follow the way of the SKOPIANS being represented by the "Ouranio Toxo", in order to count them? Lets clear the air and see who and how many are out there, projecting the notion of "minorities", any kind of minorities within the Hellenic lands. > > Best, > Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/7cb1059d/attachment.html From afilindra at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 09:24:12 2003 From: afilindra at yahoo.com (Alexandra Filindra) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece In-Reply-To: <64.2ad7f07f.2b4ee84e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030109172412.39486.qmail@web41407.mail.yahoo.com> --- LYNGOS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/9/03 06:38:56 Pacific Standard > Time, afilindra@yahoo.com > writes: > > No one imposed any kind of assimilation to them. > They were asked to obey the > laws of the land, and if those as you call them > "ethnolinguistic traditions" > survived, it is the best evidence that assimilation > was not imposed on "them". > Actually, that is not true. I need to refer you to I. Koliopoulos (1997) work on Macedonia and several works on the interwar period, especially the Metaxas dictatorship. Metaxas made it illegal for Slav speakers to use their language and their traditions. As for the situation with Muslims in Thrace, you may want to take a look at S. Akgonul (2000) "Une Communaute, Deux Etats" or the work of J. Dallegre, also in French. In Greek, there is a book by F. Asimakopoulou and S. Lionaraki. The Greek state has been putting restrictions on Muslims' ability to buy and sell property in Thrace for several decades now. And as for the Pomaks, their villages belonged to the "forbiden zone" until 1997. In order to enter the zone, one needed a passport and a permission by the Nomarchis or the government in Athens. This is not the way a democratic state that prides itself for its history treats its citizens. > But the point is, that those organizing the > conference do not represent Greek > groups, they represent themselves, or a very limited > number of individuals, > in order to be called as a minority. > In other words they are attempting to CREATE a > movement of minorities, out of > local linguistic differences. > > They are scholars interested in minority rights who have a speciality in a specific group. By your logic, there should not be an academic conference on any topic unless the topic was endorsed by a majority? > > > Out of curiosity: where did you find that 4,951 > > number? Is that how many people voted for "Ouranio > > Toxo" in one of the last elections? > > > Yes. > Well, then you should know that who voted for Ouranio Toxo does not necessarily correlate with who is of Slavic descent and would like to feel comfortable to use their language. Since the Greek state, for obvious political reasons, stopped asking people on the census about their language, the last data that we have are from 1928. I believe that the most recent estimates of the Slavspeaking indigenous population in Greek Macedonia are about 80,000 (anyone has more precise info?). ===== "If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?" Albert Einstein Alexandra Filindra Department of Political Science Rutgers University email: afilindra@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From bsyrrakos at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 09:34:41 2003 From: bsyrrakos at yahoo.com (Barbara Syrrakos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] In my haste... (minorities conference) In-Reply-To: <20030109172412.39486.qmail@web41407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030109173441.91185.qmail@web11205.mail.yahoo.com> I deleted the original message re: the conference on minorities in Greece -- presumably incl. where, when, etc.. Could someone please re-post it? Thank you. Barb Syrrakos __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From afilindra at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 09:46:07 2003 From: afilindra at yahoo.com (Alexandra Filindra) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] conference on Minorities in Greece-original posting In-Reply-To: <200301081628.LAA05952@changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <20030109174607.62322.qmail@web41410.mail.yahoo.com> > Historisches Seminar Universität Freiburg i.Br., > Osteuropa Institut > Freie Universität Berlin > 30.01.2003-01.02.2003, Berlin > > Supported by > Fritz- Thyssen- Stiftung (Cologne) > > Place of the Conference: > > Clubhaus > Freie Universitaet Berlin > Goetherstraße 49 > D-14163 Berlin > (Underground Station "Krumme Lanke") > Teilnahme nur nach Voranmeldung > > > PROGRAMME > > Thursday, 30th January 2003 > > 9:45 Opening > Holm Sundhaussen (Berlin) > Vice-Director of Osteuropa Institut, Freie > Universität Berlin > Director of Department: History and Culture > 10:00 Peter Haslinger (Munich) > Imagined Territories and Ethnoscapes - Ways to > Conceptualize the > Role of Minorities in International Settings > Discussion > > 10:30 Christian Promitzer (Graz) > The Body of the Other: "Racial Science" and > Minorities in > Southeastern Europe > Discussion > > 11:00 Coffee break > > 11:30 Vemund Aarbakke (Oslo/Athens) > Adjusting to the new international framework for > minority > protection - challenges for the Greek state and its > minorities > Discussion > > 12:00 Lunch Break > > 15:30 Konstantinos Tsitselikis (Salonika) > Legal aspects of religious and linguistic otherness > in Greece > Discussion > > 16:00 Georgios Mavrommatis (Salonika/Athens) > Constructing identities for the Thracian Muslim > youth: the role of > education > Discussion > > 16:30 Coffee break > > 17.00 Tasos Kostopoulos (Athens) > Counting the Other: official census and classified > statistics in > Greece (1830-2001) > Discussion > > 17:30 Philip Carabott (London) > The politics of constructing the "other": the Greek > state and its > Slavic-speaking citizens, ca. 1923-ca. 1949 > Discussion > > 18:00 End > > Friday, 31st January 2003 > 9:30 Riki van Boeschoten (Volos/Brussels) > "Bratstvo i Jedinstvo"? Macedonian political > refugees in Eastern > Europe > Discussion > > 10:00 Georgia Kretsi (Berlin) > >From landholding to landlessness. The Relationship > between the > Property and Legal Status of the Cham Muslim > Albanians > Discussion > > 10:30 Coffee break > > 11:00 Dora Lafazani (Athens) > Migration as a tool in state's, group's and > individual's strategies > Discussion > > 11:30 Sevasti Trubeta (Berlin/Freiburg) > 'Minorization' and 'Ethnicization' in the Greek > society: comparative > Perspectives on Moslem Migrants and the Moslem > Minority > Discussion > > 12:00 lunch Break > > 15:00 Christian Voss (Freiburg) > Sociolinguistic perspectives for the Slavic > minorities in Greek > Thrace and Greek Macedonia > Discussion > > 15:30 Alexandra Ioannidou (Athens) > Linguistic research in Greece: The slavic dialects > in Western and > Central Macedonia. First observations and comments > Discussion > > 16:00 Coffee break > > 16:30 Claudia Rossini (Zurich) > Graecophiles and Macedonophiles: The clash of > identities at village level > Discussion > > 17:00 End > > Saturday, 1st February 2003 > 9:30 Thede Kahl (Vienna) > Religious, linguistic and ethnic labels. The case of > the Vlachs > Discussion > > 10:00 Evangelos Karagiannis (Berlin) > Pomaks of Bulgaria and Greece - comparative issues > Discussion > > 10:30 Coffee break > > 11:00 Concluding Discussion > 12:00 End of the conference > > > For information, please contact the following e-mail > addresses: > Dr. Sevasti Trubeta > trubeta.sevasti@berlin.de > Dr. Christian Voss > Christian.Voss@geschichte.uni-freiburg.de ===== "If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?" Albert Einstein Alexandra Filindra Department of Political Science Rutgers University email: afilindra@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From AKarpathak at aol.com Thu Jan 9 10:12:41 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <79FDDC80.286FBFA1.09E588BC@aol.com> Lyngo, language is not a criterion of minority designation. Neither are numbers. "Minority" is again, a relational concept/term, referring to issues of power, discrimination, etc. Should it be determined that members of a group are targeted for discrimination, i.e., UNEQUAL TREATMENT, regardless of numerical size, then that group would "satisfy" one of the "minority" criteria. Now, as to whether the state is ethically/morally bound/responsible, however, you wanna call it, for promoting cultural, religious, linguistic diversity or whether it chooses the route of "homogenization," that is a different question. Anna K. In a message dated Thu, 9 Jan 2003 ?9:23:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, LYNGOS writes: >In a message dated 1/9/03 04:46:29 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak@aol.com writes: > > >Lyngo, I'm not sure I get your point. nbsp;None of the minorities, that at least I saw listed in that conference program, are "ahead" of dominant Greeks on any indicators, e.g., income, education, etc. nbsp;From my limited understanding of Greek society, they are not found in important positions in mainstream institutions that wield real power, whether these be educational, political or even mass media. nbsp; > >Again, my reading of your posting may be off, so please do clarify. nbsp; > > > >I believe for example that the Pakistanis are a larger minority in Greece than the one "so-called" "Makedonian". >After all the "Makedonians" are 4,951 while the number of Pakistanis is tenths of thousands. >Should the state consider as a minority, 4,951 people wishing to call themselves a minority only because they have as second language that Slav one? >Should the state create, with tax-payers money, schools, facilities, etc.etc. for those 4,951 people? >But then, what about the Pakistanis? >Or any other group with higher numbers that 4,951? >Where are those Vlachs, wanting or for the better considering themselves as a "minority" just because they speak as a second language, one of the Vlachian idioms? >But then, in Greece there are 3,000,000 English speaking people! >Should we create an English minority? >An American one? >A Turkish one? >An Egyptian? >According to, I think it was the first census in Greece, we found that we had thousands of people speaking the Tsakonian dialect, the Arvanite dialect even the Turkish language, I am speaking of hunded of thousands. We decided then to eliminate those dialects and create, we are still creating it, an omogeneous ethnic-national language, since we believed it would be better for the future of our children. >So, to consider as a "minority" any group, on the base of linguistics, should not define a "minority" in Greece. >And, again, if the group organizing the conference beliefs that in Greece do exist linguistic minorities, should explain to us, HOW COME, in the programme we don't have anything for the English, Italian, Arabic, and so on, "minorities. >Do you have an idea? > >Regards to all............L. > >"Vlachs, the autochthonous >of the Hellenic peninsula". > From AKarpathak at aol.com Thu Jan 9 10:16:14 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <378BB8D9.3264144F.09E588BC@aol.com> Alexandra, :::))) This brought a smile on my face, lol. Anna K. In a message dated 1/9/2003 9:37:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, Alexandra Filindra writes: >>Out of curiosity: where did you find that 4,951 >number? Is that how many people voted for "Ouranio >Toxo" in one of the last elections? > >Alexandra > > >--- LYNGOS@aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 1/9/03 04:46:29 Pacific Standard >> Time, AKarpathak@aol.com >> writes: >> > >> I believe for example that the Pakistanis are a >> larger minority in Greece >> than the one "so-called" "Makedonian". >> After all the "Makedonians" are 4,951 while the >> number of Pakistanis is >> tenths of thousands. >> Should the state consider as a minority, 4,951 >> people wishing to call >> themselves a minority only because they have as >> second language that Slav one? >> Should the state create, with tax-payers money, >> schools, facilities, etc.etc. >> for those 4,951 people? >> But then, what about the Pakistanis? >> Or any other group with higher numbers that 4,951? >> Where are those Vlachs, wanting or for the better >> considering themselves as a >> "minority" just because they speak as a second >> language, one of the Vlachian >> idioms? >> But then, in Greece there are 3,000,000 English >> speaking people! >> Should we create an English minority? >> An American one? >> A Turkish one? >> An Egyptian? >> According to, I think it was the first census in >> Greece, we found that we had >> thousands of people speaking the Tsakonian dialect, >> the Arvanite dialect even >> the Turkish language, I am speaking of hunded of >> thousands. We decided then >> to eliminate those dialects and create, we are still >> creating it, an >> omogeneous ethnic-national language, since we >> believed it would be better for >> the future of our children. >> So, to consider as a "minority" any group, on the >> base of linguistics, should >> not define a "minority" in Greece. >> And, again, if the group organizing the conference >> beliefs that in Greece do >> exist linguistic minorities, should explain to us, >> HOW COME, in the programme >> we don't have anything for the English, Italian, >> Arabic, and so on, >> "minorities. >> Do you have an idea? >> >> Regards to all............L. >> >> "Vlachs, the autochthonous >> of the Hellenic peninsula". >> > > >===== >"If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?" ? Albert Einstein > >Alexandra Filindra >Department of Political Science >Rutgers University >email: afilindra@yahoo.com > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com > From ejt1 at columbia.edu Thu Jan 9 10:21:02 2003 From: ejt1 at columbia.edu (Elias J Theodoracopoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece In-Reply-To: <20030109172412.39486.qmail@web41407.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030109172412.39486.qmail@web41407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Alexandra Filindra wrote: > The Greek state > been putting restrictions on Muslims' ability to buy > and sell property in Thrace for several decades now. > And as for the Pomaks, their villages belonged to the > "forbiden zone" until 1997. In order to enter the > zone, one needed a passport and a permission by the > Nomarchis or the government in Athens. This is not the > way a democratic state that prides itself for its > history treats its citizens. Aren't you pre-judging the issue, then, by calling the state "democratic"? Wouldn't it also be more accurate to say "that prides itself for its sanitized view of its history"? EJTh From LYNGOS at aol.com Thu Jan 9 10:26:16 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <12c.1fdebee8.2b4f18c8@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/03 09:27:45 Pacific Standard Time, afilindra@yahoo.com writes: > > Actually, that is not true. I need to refer you to I. > Koliopoulos (1997) work on Macedonia and several works > on the interwar period, especially the Metaxas > dictatorship. Metaxas made it illegal for Slav > speakers to use their language and their traditions. > As for the situation with Muslims in Thrace, you may > want to take a look at S. Akgonul (2000) "Une > Communaute, Deux Etats" or the work of J. Dallegre, > also in French. In Greek, there is a book by F. > Asimakopoulou and S. Lionaraki. The Greek state has > been putting restrictions on Muslims' ability to buy > and sell property in Thrace for several decades now. > And as for the Pomaks, their villages belonged to the > "forbiden zone" until 1997. In order to enter the > zone, one needed a passport and a permission by the > Nomarchis or the government in Athens. This is not the > way a democratic state that prides itself for its > history treats its citizens.> The Greek state has been placing restrictions to the ones not wanting to abide by the laws. If you are aware of such books, then, you should equally be aware that such restrictions were placed while Hellas was in a belligerent state with various of her neighbors or under martial law. Not to forget of course the exchanges of population between Bulgaria-Serbia and Greece, regarding the Slav-speaking inhabitants of Greece, in November of 1919, and the one between Greece and Turkey after the Asia Minor disaster. The deal for the ones that chose to remain was that Hellas in order to advance had to speak one official language, while they could speak any kind of language in the family. The situation with the Thracian Turks as well as with some and I say again, some, of the Pomacks was what it was because of the diplomatic relations with Turkey. No "minority" status was ever asked by the Hellenic Pomacks, do you know of any of them that want to raise a "minority" status? > > They are scholars interested in minority rights who> > have a speciality in a specific group. By your logic,> > there should not be an academic conference on any> > topic unless the topic was endorsed by a majority?> Nope, by my logic these scholars should take care when they are asked to help, by a recognized minority or a group of minorities, rather than attempting to create, a situation that doesn't exist in first place. I am glad that you verify my suspicions of "scholars", now it remains to see if those "scholars" are Phillelhnes, or Anthellhnes, as well as, if they belong to the right or left political ideology. > > Well, then you should know that who voted for Ouranio > Toxo does not necessarily correlate with who is of > Slavic descent and would like to feel comfortable to > use their language. Since the Greek state, for obvious > political reasons, stopped asking people on the > census about their language, the last data that we > have are from 1928. I believe that the most recent > estimates of the Slavspeaking indigenous population in > Greek Macedonia are about 80,000 (anyone has more > precise info?). > But that is precisely my proposal, to have them come out and identify themselves as what they wish to speak. The truth with Ouranio Toxo is that they don't even want to be characterized as Slavo-Makedonians. And even,( I am not sure if a question with regards the language exist in the census), even in that case those feeling that they deserve a status of "minority", of ANY kind should come forward and ask for their rights. But, the foreign "scholars" and non scholars, as well as many individuals in the payroll of various Anti-Hellenic organizations, have not and must have not place in our country. We can take care of ourselves, believe it or not. > > "If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?" > Albert Einstein But, we know what you are doing............... > > Alexandra Filindra > Department of Political Science > Rutgers University > email: afilindra@yahoo.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/bb591f8c/attachment.html From AKarpathak at aol.com Thu Jan 9 10:20:41 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:53 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <7815E2B0.42798211.09E588BC@aol.com> Lyngo, if the groups mentioned in the conference program are indeed ONLY linguistic minorities, then they should have been defined as LINGUISTIC MINORITIES. However, it is NOT clear that this is the case. There are some on the list who can better speak re: Linguistic Minorities in Canada, and how Canada has tried to better "serve" ITS citizens who speak/practice, etc. language/s other than English. USA, btw, does NOT practice pluralism, the way Canada does in its educational institutions, the USA has worked along the lines of "homogenization", something you are arguing for re: immigrant groups in Greece. Ultimately, it is a decision based on one's political values; participatory democracy vs. "nationalist" ethos. Anna K. In a message dated Thu, 9 Jan 2003 ?9:59:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, LYNGOS writes: >In a message dated 1/9/03 06:38:56 Pacific Standard Time, afilindra@yahoo.com writes: > > > >Lyngo: >It is surely a valid point that it is difficult to >determine what is the critical mass that you need >(i.e. how many people) to have a minority. > >However, in most cases, if people have a separate >ethnolinguistic tradition and a consciousness of being >different, a democratic state should not have the >right to impose assimilation on them.gt; > >No one imposed any kind of assimilation to them. They were asked to obey the laws of the land, and if those as you call them "ethnolinguistic traditions" survived, it is the best evidence that assimilation was not imposed on "them". > > >The Greek state >is not particularly concerned with the transient >minorities (except when it comes to issues of >crimiinal justice)because government officials believe >that the Pakistanis, Filipinos, Polish, Albanians, >etc, are not going to be in Greece forever. They will >make some money and then leave to go home, or to the >US or somewhere else. However, if a significant number >of these people develop roots in Greece, have children >there who speak Greek and go to Greek schools, they >will start to want and expect political rights and >recognition. This is what is happening today in most >of Western Europe, but Greece hasn't gotten to this >point yet. gt; > > > >But the point is, that those organizing the conference do not represent Greek groups, they represent themselves, or a very limited number of individuals, in order to be called as a minority. >In other words they are attempting to CREATE a movement of minorities, out of local linguistic differences. > > > > >Out of curiosity: where did you find that 4,951 >number? Is that how many people voted for "Ouranio >Toxo" in one of the last elections? gt; > > > >Yes. > > > > >Alexandra > > > From LYNGOS at aol.com Thu Jan 9 11:05:12 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <6d.6cb1ec8.2b4f21e8@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/03 10:20:41 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak writes: > > Lyngo, if the groups mentioned in the conference program are indeed ONLY > linguistic minorities, then they should have been defined as LINGUISTIC > MINORITIES. However, it is NOT clear that this is the case. Anna Read the programm and the title of the Conference, thats how the whole thing began. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/4dfcdd52/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Thu Jan 9 11:07:52 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <36.36159761.2b4f2288@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/03 10:28:18 Pacific Standard Time, ejt1@columbia.edu writes: > Aren't you pre-judging the issue, then, by calling the state "democratic"? > Wouldn't it also be more accurate to say "that prides itself for its > sanitized view of its history"? > > > EJTh > But isn't in such a way that a state becomes a state? Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/41c036c6/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Thu Jan 9 11:03:58 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <1aa.e8a4910.2b4f219e@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/03 10:12:41 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak writes: > Lyngo, language is not a criterion of minority designation. Did you read the programm and the title of the Conference? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/4c54c9c8/attachment.html From afilindra at yahoo.com Thu Jan 9 11:22:55 2003 From: afilindra at yahoo.com (Alexandra Filindra) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] democracy in Greece In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030109192255.96631.qmail@web41409.mail.yahoo.com> Elia: You are right about the sanitized view of history (which is the case for all states, I am afraid), but I would not go as far as to say that Greece is undemocratic. The issues are being raised and SLOOOOOOOOOOOWLYYYYYYYYY changes are being made. It is a good thing, for example, that we have gotten rid of the "forbiden zone" and that Article 19 is to be eliminated. There is a lot of resistance from people who, in my view, are racist ultranationalists, but I am optimistic that the democratic process will prevail, again SLOOOOOOOOOOWLYYYYYY. Alexandra --- Elias J Theodoracopoulos wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Alexandra Filindra wrote: > > > The Greek state > > been putting restrictions on Muslims' ability to > buy > > and sell property in Thrace for several decades > now. > > And as for the Pomaks, their villages belonged to > the > > "forbiden zone" until 1997. In order to enter the > > zone, one needed a passport and a permission by > the > > Nomarchis or the government in Athens. This is not > the > > way a democratic state that prides itself for its > > history treats its citizens. > > Aren't you pre-judging the issue, then, by calling > the state "democratic"? > Wouldn't it also be more accurate to say "that > prides itself for its > sanitized view of its history"? > > > EJTh ===== "If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?" Albert Einstein Alexandra Filindra Department of Political Science Rutgers University email: afilindra@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From Roland at prev.org Thu Jan 9 11:45:52 2003 From: Roland at prev.org (Roland Moore) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] FW: Panagiotakes' Prize Message-ID: From: Panagiotis Roilos [mailto:roilos@fas.harvard.edu] Dear all, I would like to bring to your attention the newly founded Prize honoring the memory of N.M.Panagiotakes. With all best wishes for the New Year, Panagiotis Roilos PRIZE IN HONOUR OF THE MEMORY OF NIKOLAOS M. PANAGIOTAKES (1935-1997) The Greek Ministries of Foreign Affairs and of Culture, the Universities of Ioannina and Ca' Foscari, Venice, and the Cassa di Risparmio Foundation and the Italia-Grecia Association of Venice announce a Prize in Honour of the Memory of Nikolaos M. Panagiotakes, Director of the Istituto Ellenico di Studi Bizantini e Post-Bizantini, Venice. The prize is intended for younger researchers not over 40 years old. A special committee will judge unpublished studies submitted to the prize organizers, of up to 100 A4 pages in length, which should be related to areas of research that were of particular interest to Panagiotakes, such as Byzantine literature, the vernacular tradition, the Cretan Renaissance, and Byzantine -Venetian relations. The study may be in written in Greek, Italian, English or French. The Prize will be Euro 2,500. Participants in the Panagiotakes Prize should submit their studies by 1 June 2003 to: Caterina Carpinato, Dipartimento di Scienze dell'Antichita e del Vicino Oriente, Universita Ca' Foscari, San Sebastiano, Dorsoduro 1686, 30123 Venezia, Italia. The Prize will be awarded on 1 October 2003, on the occasion of the sixth anniversary since the passing away of Nikolaos Panagiotakes. From LYNGOS at aol.com Thu Jan 9 11:53:41 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] democracy in Greece Message-ID: <95.284e0676.2b4f2d45@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/03 11:24:39 Pacific Standard Time, afilindra@yahoo.com writes: > There is a lot of resistance from people > who, in my view, are racist ultranationalists, but I > am optimistic that the democratic process will > prevail, again SLOOOOOOOOOOWLYYYYYY. > Alexandra > Yup, Democracy will prevail, and then we will see where are all these "minorities" and the number of their adherents within Hellas. Regards to all............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/e9563574/attachment.html From modgreek at sfsu.edu Thu Jan 9 14:39:46 2003 From: modgreek at sfsu.edu (Center for Modern Greek Studies) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] News about SFSU Modern Greek classes Message-ID: Please pass this message on to anyone who might be interested in our classes....thanks. Center for Modern Greek Studies Spring 2003 Classes MGS/GRE 151 Modern Greek II [GE] Continuation of Modern Greek I. Basic oral expression, listening comprehension, reading and writing will be emphasized. This is a GE course Instructor: Prof. Martha Klironomos Time: Monday and Wednesday 2:10-3:25 p.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MGS/GRE 470 Advanced Modern Greek IV May be taken concurrently with MGS 555 Intro to Modern Greek Literature A continuation of Modern Greek IV. Accelerated emphasis on conversation, grammar, reading, and writing in contemporary Greek. Instructor: Despina Spanidis Time: Tuesday 3:35-6:20 p.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NEW CLASS! May be taken concurrently with MGS/GRE 470 Advanced Modern Greeek IV MGS 555 Introduction to Modern Greek Literature A new course! We will be reading some of Greece's most famous authors in the original. The course will also cover Modern Greek grammar for upper division students. Instructor: Despina Spanidis Time: Thursday 3:35-6:20 p.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Related History Course: HIST 349 Greece and the Balkans The history of Greece and the Balkans from the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 to the present. Instructor: Prof. Constantine Danopoulos Time: Thursday 7-10 p.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MGS 152 Modern Greek Conversation A course for the advanced beginner, offered through the College of Extended Learning, (see registration information below) and geared toward practical language usage. Prerequisite: MGS 150 or equivalent. Instructor: Katerina Chiotis Time: Monday 7:00-9:00 p.m. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Center for Modern Greek Studies Registration Information If you have any questions about our classes, or how to determine which class to choose, please call the Center at 415-338-1892 or e-mail us at modgreek@sfsu.edu Spring 2003 Touchtone and online registration: Dec 5-Dec 23 Mon-Fri: 7pm-Midnight Sun: 8am - Midnight Dec 24 8am - 12 Noon Jan 2-19 Sun-Fri: 8am-Midnight Jan 20-24 Mon-Thu: 8am-7pm Fri: 8am-5pm You can register during any Open Registration Period after your Priority Appointment time. Spring 2003 Classes begin Monday, January 27, 2003 San Francisco State University Students: SFSU students should register through SFSU touchtone system beginning December 5, 2002. For more information on registration at San Francisco State University see: http://www.sfsu.edu/~admisrec/reg/reg032.html College of Extended Learning Modern Greek Conversation: Registration can be done in advance or you may register at the first class meeting. Check the Extended Learning registration information page Any adult in the community may enroll in University courses without being formally admitted to the University. To find out details of enrollment, please contact SFSU College of Extended Learning at (415) 405-7700. Over-Sixty Program Persons 60 years of age or older can earn a Baccalaureate or Masters degree at the University without payment of admission or registration fees. You only pay a $3 fee for each term you attend. To be eligible for the program, you must: 1) be at least 60 years of age 2) have been a California resident for a full year immediately preceding your enrollment 3) meet the standard requirements for admission to the University. For more information call the Urban Elders Program at (415) 338-2127. Please note that this special fee does not apply for courses offered through the College of Extended Learning .Eldercollege This program is also for those over 60. Although it is not possible to earn a degree through Eldercollege, you may audit regular classes on a space available basis. You do not need to meet the standard requirements for admission to be a part of this program. The fee is $45 per semester. Please note that this fee does not apply for courses offered through the College of Extended Learning. -- -- --------------------------------------------------------- Center for Modern Greek Studies Nikos Kazantzakis Chair, San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue, San Francisco. CA 94132 TEL: 415-338-1892 FAX: 415-338-0932 e-mail: modgreek@sfsu.edu web: http://www.sfsu.edu/~modgreek Professor Martha Klironomos, Director Smithy Blackwell, Office Manager -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030109/47b8a609/attachment.html From mango at makedonskosonce.com Thu Jan 9 18:05:10 2003 From: mango at makedonskosonce.com (Slavko Mangovski) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece References: <20030109172412.39486.qmail@web41407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01f601c2b84c$b62fb3c0$25c13318@atlsfl.adelphia.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandra Filindra" To: Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece >> > Actually, that is not true. I need to refer you to I. > Koliopoulos (1997) work on Macedonia and several works > on the interwar period, especially the Metaxas > dictatorship. Metaxas made it illegal for Slav > speakers to use their language and their traditions. Although not as harsh as during Metaxas things didn't improve much until the early 1990's. Only then people started to sing songs in their language. Today at village festivals in Florina, Edessa and Kozani areas one can witness young and old singing exclusively in Macedonian for the entire duration of the festivals. Problems still exist in other areas but that is changing, too. Another sign of improvement is the fact that the recently installed sign at the Ouranio Toxo office in Florina (RAINBOW-EUROPEAN MOVEMENT in Greek, Macedonian and English) still stands. Although improved the situation is far from normal (compared to other EU states). This is from the 1999 Annual Report by the Greek Ombudsman: "Human rights violations by the [Greek] administration (.) can be codified with the words arbitrariness-indifference-bias-impunity; they take their most acute form when applied on vulnerable social groups. Often the [Greek] administration arbitrarily uses public interest as an excuse to restrict individual rights or shows illegal idleness when there is a constitutional obligation to protect human rights [p.15]. These phenomena will not be eliminated as long as existing disciplinary procedures remain idle. (.) The [Greek] administration, reproducing the most backward reflexes of [Greek] society, often shows its worst face when dealing with members of minority groups. The pathology of human rights in [Greek] is mainly a problem of implementing existing constitutional and legal provisions rather than lack thereof. It is common wisdom that in the [Greek] administration prevails a feeling of impunity, that in some cases favors occasional illegal actions, or in other cases it perpetuates a status of generalized anomy and corruption [pp. 55-56]." > Well, then you should know that who voted for Ouranio > Toxo does not necessarily correlate with who is of > Slavic descent and would like to feel comfortable to > use their language. Since the Greek state, for obvious > political reasons, stopped asking people on the > census about their language, the last data that we > have are from 1928. I believe that the most recent > estimates of the Slavspeaking indigenous population in > Greek Macedonia are about 80,000 (anyone has more > precise info?). It is very hard to speak of numbers in view of the above. How clever is it for one to express proper ethnicity in an atmsphere where one can be labeled as a 'separatist, anti-Greek, traitor....' with all the consequences to his job, family, friends. Until things improve considerably it is impossible to speak about numbers. More informaton about Ouranio Toxo could be found at www.florina.org . In true democracies minorities should have a right to preserve their linguistic, cultural and/or religious heritage regardless of their size. If even 5 persons claim to be a minority the state should respect that and not hinder it. Slavko Mangovski From ssm at panafonet.gr Fri Jan 10 02:54:22 2003 From: ssm at panafonet.gr (Simeon Magliveras) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? Message-ID: <004301c2b896$a449cb60$9a22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Why is the idea of old or new minorities in Greece so theatening to many people? Are minorities threatening? Melina Merkouri was an Arvanite and spoke Arvanitika. Was she a member of a minority? And if so, what is its implications? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030110/51347d12/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Fri Jan 10 04:59:15 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:54 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: Slavko Mangovski wrote: >Although not as harsh as during Metaxas things didn't improve< >much until the early 1990's. Only then people started to sing songs< >in their language. Today at village festivals in Florina, Edessa and Kozani< >areas one can witness young and old singing exclusively in Macedonian for the < >entire duration of the festivals. Problems still exist in other areas but that is< changing, too.< >Another sign of improvement is the fact that the recently installed sign at< >the Ouranio Toxo office in Florina (RAINBOW-EUROPEAN MOVEMENT< >in Greek, Macedonian and English) still stands. Although improved< >the situation is far from normal (compared to other EU states). This is from< >the 1999 Annual Report by the Greek Ombudsman:>< My good old friend Slavko, didn't take too long to bring you out, did it now? What things didn't improve much till the early 1990's?  People singing songs in THEIR language? Which is THEIR language? A Makedonian one? But that language it was and still remains a Hellenic one, unless of course you are talking of the Bulgar or Bulgarian idiom from Sofia and Skopjie, which it was and indeed is still spoken by very few in the areas of Florina, Kastoria and Edessa. Are those people Makedonians? For being Hellenes, sure they are, but their idiom was not and it is not a Makedonian one. It is the Bulgar idiom spoken in our areas for not more than 2-300 years. Even Evliya Celebi does not make any references to any kind of "Makedonian" language, and indeed he travelled all over Makedonia again and again. He speaks of Serbian language, he speak of Greek language, he speaks of Armenian language, he speaks of Bulgarian language, he speaks of Latin language, everything except a Makedonian one. Did you forget the festivals organized by the educational Society of Florina "ARISTOTELIS" back in the 1950s, who's first elected president, during the years of our fighting against the triple occupation by the Nazi Germans, the Fascist Italian and the Nazi-Fascist first and later turned Communist Bulgarians , was my defunct father? Did you forget the meatings between the dancers from the Alona and the Bufi villages, in the middle of the road from Florina to Pisoderi? The old woman who had returned from the Soviet paradise and Simos teaching to the others the dances, holding me on their laps during pauses. What kind of language they were speaking then........back in the 1950's? What kind of music the musicians were playing? Were the people from Alona and Bufi free to speak ANY language they wanted, yes or not? Were the musical tunes the SAME then as they are NOW? Yes or not? The PEOPLE, the people of the land KNEW what they were and it is for that reason that they REJECTED again and again the Bulgarian propaganda first, they survived the Serbian terror later, and they REJECTED the Communism dashing out from Skopia, Tirana and Bulkes, during the years 1946-1949. Yes or not Slavko? The Makedonian coins, found in our lands, around Florina, Kastoria and Edessa, the inscriptions made on first quality marbles burried dip in our muddy fields, they have on them Makedonian inscriptions written with HELLENIC letters, with references to HELLENIC names, not with letters created for those barbarian Slavs, as they were the Moravians, at the time when Kyrillos taught them the Gospel and gave them an alphabet. The Makedonian alphabet was that Hellenic one, the one of Kyrillos was that for the Slavs. Listen or for the better since you already know it, let the others of this group hear few things. From Peter.A.Bien at Dartmouth.EDU Fri Jan 10 05:15:13 2003 From: Peter.A.Bien at Dartmouth.EDU (Peter A. Bien) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] help with refugee work Message-ID: <5786500@newdancer.Dartmouth.EDU> Dear Friends, This message comes from a former Dartmouth student and Olympic athlete, Don Morgan Nielsen, who has been residing in Greece for over a decade, working mostly with refugees. What he describes here is extremely important. If you can help Don in his work with refugees, please respond directly to him. His e-mail is: dmn@otenet.gr His mailing address is Palama 40, 154-51 Neo Psychiko. His telephone in Athens is 011 30 210 67.28.700. Peter Bien Dear Peter, After ten years of pleading and pushing, a newly constituted board of Doctors of the World-Greece has finally given me the go-ahead to create a professionally run office and to actually PLAN missions BEFORE launching them! - setting up refugee camps and medical clinics in Syria, Jordan and Iran - and preparing to supply children's hospitals in Bhagdad. In Greece we are strengthening our refugee reception programs and facilities, including mobile clinics for the islands. Even if nothing happens from Bush, we still need to mobilize and get ready - and find a way to engage and employ Greek youth in something other than video games. George Papandreou is doing fantastic preventative work, and Turkey, luckily, seems to be holding fast for the moment. If war breaks out, though, we may be given the responsibility to organize one entire Greek-run refugee camp of 50-100,000 people, with up to one hundred medical clinics (including some telemedicine clinics and surgeries). If you know anyone in the U.S., prominent Greek doctors or Diaspora community leaders, etc. who you think might be interested in assisting in some way, please let me know. We'll have an equipped and staffed office on Stadiou Street in the center in one more week, thanks to the University, and I've already found a project manager, secretary and database manager. We're gearing up Project Nausica - refugee reception program for the islands and coastal towns, Project Nepheli for refugee children (immediate medical, dietary, psychological care - clothes and schooling), the Pendeli refugee camp still needs refurbishing, but the polyclinic in the center is ready. Working in Syria and Iran presents daunting and almost hallucinatory scenes of bureaucratic denial, but we are making headway there thanks to Greece's foundation of careful diplomacy in that region. Yours very truly, Don From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 10 09:18:59 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? References: <004301c2b896$a449cb60$9a22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Message-ID: <3E1F0082.C7D5A555@hermesnetwork.com> Hello and Happy New Year to All, I am new to this list and I'm no expert on Greece, but I could not restrain mysef from taking part in this particular thread. I am almost certain that Melina Merkouri considered herself to be Greek before anything else (but she's dead so chances are we won't be able to verify my assertion). As to the issue of minorities, my own opinion does not jibe with the politially correct, libertarian concepts that some of you have been proposing. A democracy is about rule by the majority of the voting populace period. The very idea of special interest minority groups imposing upon the will of the majority is anathema to the very concept of democratic representation and rule. No 'minority' groups ought to be given special rights or considerations within any society that professes to be 'democratic'. If you live (or intend to live) in Greece, assimilation is the best way to go about being accepted by your Greek neighbours. Strangers are always and everywhere looked upon with suspicion, most especially these days. So yes, I believe minorities and the granting of special rights within an existing political commonwealth to any 'minority' group is threatening to the general populace at large, and ought to be discouraged in the strongest possible terms. Sincerely, Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com Simeon Magliveras wrote: > Why is the idea of old or new minorities in Greece so > theatening to many people? Are minorities > threatening? Melina Merkouri was an Arvanite and spoke > Arvanitika. Was she a member of a minority? And if so, > what is its implications? From gcamp at bryant.edu Fri Jan 10 10:42:38 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? References: <004301c2b896$a449cb60$9a22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Message-ID: <3E1F141E.3C839C52@bryant.edu> I'm afraid that Mr. Magliveras does not truly understand that Greece, like most European developed democracies, is in fact composed of both majority and min- ority groups. A brief reading of Le Contrat Social by Jean Jacques Rousseau will reveal the terrible danger of a democracy undiluted by liberal humane principles. There is *no right* in Roussea against the "volonte general" or "general will" of the majority. Thus one can easily have a "majoritarian totalitarianism" which is what democracy unalloyed by liberal humanitarians can become. After all, Hitler was elected in 1932/33 by a plurality (41%) of the German people and having studied the matter for many years I think it's fair to say that a *majority* of the German people supported him at various times. And his majoritarian "democratic" totalitarianism remains as a reminder of what happened to "minorities" in Nazi Germany such as the Jews, Socialists, Christian activists, and gays. I do not in any sense wish to compare Nazi Germany with Greece--even under the Junta or Metaxis's fascist dictatorship--just to point out the ultimate logic of Mr. Magliveras' point of view when carried to its inexorable conclusion. Glen D. Camp Simeon Magliveras wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7BIT From ssm at panafonet.gr Fri Jan 10 14:04:00 2003 From: ssm at panafonet.gr (Simeon Magliveras) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs References: <20030110200005.29416.5958.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> Message-ID: <002901c2b8f4$2f3c57d0$5322f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> I would like to make few comments about Minorities in general and in Greece. Clearly Mr. Camp misunderstands where I am coming from. I posed these questions not as a denial of Minorities in Greece but as a verification of them. Clearly Minorities do exist in Greece as in every other imagined community. Minorities in Greece have been naturalized ....always suggesting that "this group" are really the oldest of the Ancient Greeks. The point is, minority identities have been nutalised, sometimes by violent means if they do not conform. Interestingly enough the largest objections to the existence of endogenous minorities are from people whose identities are most at risk of being a member or non-member of a specific group such as members of the Diaspora or people living on the borderlands. Their identify is most threatened. Identities are complex and flexible. Is a Greek-American Greek or American first? I don't think such questions can be answered in an either/or way. Merkouri never denied being an Arvanitisa but said rather "so what, so is half of Greece. Presently with the influx of Albanians in the country being an arvanite is not so cut and dry. Clearly people feel very strongly about whatever identity they adhere to. I would never deny anyone's Greekness. But as academic it is important to realise the mechanism which produce them and also suppress other identities. In response to Mr. Sotiropoulos, Democracy is not just the wishes of the majority but also the obligation to the minority and the obligation to protect less powerful groups from the selfish desires of the majority. History, time and time again has shown the powerful dealt with minority problem by assimilation or genocide. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs > Send MGSA-L mailing list submissions to > mgsa-l@uci.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > mgsa-l-request@uci.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > mgsa-l-admin@uci.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of MGSA-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. help with refugee work (Peter A. Bien) > 2. Re: Minorities?? (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) > 3. Re: Minorities?? (Glen D. Camp) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: 10 Jan 2003 08:15:13 EST > From: Peter.A.Bien@Dartmouth.EDU (Peter A. Bien) > To: MGSA-L@uci.edu > Subject: [MGSA-L] help with refugee work > > Dear Friends, > This message comes from a former Dartmouth student and Olympic athlete, Don Morgan Nielsen, who has been residing in Greece for over a decade, working mostly with refugees. What he describes here is extremely important. If you can help Don in his work with refugees, please respond directly to him. His e-mail is: dmn@otenet.gr His mailing address is Palama 40, 154-51 Neo Psychiko. His telephone in Athens is 011 30 210 67.28.700. > Peter Bien > > > Dear Peter, > > After ten years of pleading and pushing, a newly > constituted board of Doctors of the World-Greece has finally > given me the go-ahead to create a professionally run > office and to actually PLAN missions BEFORE launching them! > - setting up refugee camps and medical clinics in Syria, > Jordan and Iran - and preparing to supply children's > hospitals in Bhagdad. In Greece we are strengthening > our refugee reception programs and facilities, including > mobile clinics for the islands. Even if nothing happens > from Bush, we still need to mobilize and get ready - and > find a way to engage and employ Greek youth in > something other than video games. > > George Papandreou is doing fantastic preventative > work, and Turkey, luckily, seems to be holding fast for the > moment. If war breaks out, though, we may be given > the responsibility to organize one entire Greek-run > refugee camp of 50-100,000 people, with up to one hundred > medical clinics (including some telemedicine clinics > and surgeries). If you know anyone in the U.S., > prominent Greek doctors or Diaspora community leaders, > etc. who you think might be interested in assisting in some way, > please let me know. We'll have an equipped and staffed > office on Stadiou Street in the center in one more week, thanks > to the University, and I've already found a project manager, > secretary and database manager. We're gearing up Project > Nausica - refugee reception program for the islands and coastal towns, > Project Nepheli for refugee children (immediate medical, dietary, > psychological care - clothes and schooling), the Pendeli refugee camp > still needs refurbishing, but the polyclinic in the center is ready. > Working in Syria and Iran presents daunting and almost > hallucinatory scenes of bureaucratic denial, but we are making > headway there thanks to Greece's foundation of careful diplomacy > in that region. > > Yours very truly, > > Don > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:18:59 -0500 > From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos > Organization: Hermes Network, Inc. > CC: MGSA-L@uci.edu > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? > > Hello and Happy New Year to All, > > I am new to this list and I'm no expert on Greece, but I > could not restrain mysef from taking part in this > particular thread. I am almost certain that Melina > Merkouri considered herself to be Greek before anything > else (but she's dead so chances are we won't be able to > verify my assertion). As to the issue of minorities, my > own opinion does not jibe with the politially correct, > libertarian concepts that some of you have been > proposing. A democracy is about rule by the majority of > the voting populace period. The very idea of special > interest minority groups imposing upon the will of the > majority is anathema to the very concept of democratic > representation and rule. No 'minority' groups ought to be > given special rights or considerations within any society > that professes to be 'democratic'. If you live (or intend > to live) in Greece, assimilation is the best way to go > about being accepted by your Greek neighbours. Strangers > are always and everywhere looked upon with suspicion, most > especially these days. So yes, I believe minorities and > the granting of special rights within an existing > political commonwealth to any 'minority' group is > threatening to the general populace at large, and ought to > be discouraged in the strongest possible terms. > > Sincerely, > > Sotiris Sotiropoulos > Hermes Network Inc. > Toronto, Canada > 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST > http://hermesnetwork.com > > Simeon Magliveras wrote: > > > Why is the idea of old or new minorities in Greece so > > theatening to many people? Are minorities > > threatening? Melina Merkouri was an Arvanite and spoke > > Arvanitika. Was she a member of a minority? And if so, > > what is its implications? > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:42:38 -0500 > From: "Glen D. Camp" > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? > To: Simeon Magliveras > Cc: MGSA-L@uci.edu, "Glen D. Camp" > > I'm afraid that Mr. Magliveras does not truly understand that Greece, > like most European developed democracies, is in fact composed of both > majority and min- > ority groups. A brief reading of Le Contrat Social by Jean Jacques > Rousseau > will reveal the terrible danger of a democracy undiluted by liberal > humane principles. > There is *no right* in Roussea against the "volonte general" or "general > will" of > the majority. Thus one can easily have a "majoritarian totalitarianism" > which is > what democracy unalloyed by liberal humanitarians can become. > After all, Hitler was elected in 1932/33 by a plurality (41%) of the > German > people and having studied the matter for many years I think it's fair to > say that > a *majority* of the German people supported him at various times. And > his > majoritarian "democratic" totalitarianism remains as a reminder of what > happened > to "minorities" in Nazi Germany such as the Jews, Socialists, Christian > activists, > and gays. > I do not in any sense wish to compare Nazi Germany with Greece--even > under the Junta or Metaxis's fascist dictatorship--just to point out the > ultimate logic of Mr. > Magliveras' point of view when carried to its inexorable conclusion. > > Glen D. Camp > > > Simeon Magliveras wrote: > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > Encoding: 7BIT > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > > > End of MGSA-L Digest From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 10 15:42:11 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <002901c2b8f4$2f3c57d0$5322f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> References: <20030110200005.29416.5958.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030110183114.00ba3d18@mail.hermesnetwork.com> At 12:04 AM 1/11/2003 +0200, Simeon Magliveras wrote: >In response to Mr. Sotiropoulos, Democracy is not just the wishes of the >majority but also the obligation to the minority and the obligation to >protect less powerful groups from the selfish desires of the majority. >History, time and time again has shown the powerful dealt with minority >problem by assimilation or genocide. I am certainly not in favour of any genocidal tendencies, but what is wrong with assimilation? The idea that one is a transplanted individual come to live among some predominantly heterogeneous, indigenous population ought to engender some respect for what is already established and acceptable to a majority of the natives. Nobody says one cannot maintain one's identity within a larger milieu, but to demand that the nation in question (any nation) bend and alter its ways to accommodate often unwelcome newcomers is a little much for many to stomach don't you think? Resentment and petty hatreds are sure to follow. On the other hand, if everyone expects and receives the same treatment, sooner or later assimilation will take place. Short-term solutions are what political correctness and libertarian ideologues are all about, but what about the long-term perspectives? are there any? should there be? I am curious. Is there anyone on this list which questions the right of a nation state to self-determination via a majority and democratically held establishment? Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services "Home of the $8.75 Domain Registration" From gedeon at globalserve.net Fri Jan 10 19:32:36 2003 From: gedeon at globalserve.net (George Gedeon) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Democracies and assimilation References: <20030110200005.29416.5958.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> <5.2.0.9.0.20030110183114.00ba3d18@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <001801c2b922$2e98fd00$5598fed8@globalserve.net> I am a bit confused about Mr. Sotiropoulos's position on "majority" rule, minorities, assimilation,etc. According to his address, he is a resident and perhaps a citizen of one of the most admired multicultural nations in the world where one can be a GREEK, speak GREEK at home and in public places, send his children to GREEK schools or after school GREEK classes, hold annual parades on GREEK NATIONAL HOLIDAYS, enjoy GREEK FOOD TASTING WEEKENDS and other GREEK picnics and dances organised by local regional associations from GREECE, publish half a dozen GREEK LANGUAGE newspapers and periodicals (just in his city), pray in at least 7 GREEK churches, proudly fly the GREEK FLAG in GREEK TOWN, fall in love with a hilarious film about a GREEK WEDDING, and be free to stand in the middle of any street and shout "I AM GREEK AND I AM PROUD OF IT", and yet he, Mr. S., promotes assimilation, majority dictatorship and ethnic and linguistic homogeneity for Greece! If we Canadian Greeks are free to enjoy all the marvellous cultural, linguistic, political and other human rights that this DEMOCRACY is offering us, why does he think that minorities in Greece do not deserve the same? Having said that, and although I sense a misunderstood thesis in Mr. K's ideas, I am fully aware that minorities in the Balkans come with centuries' old blood feuds, resentments, grudges and claims for land and identity... Not even 60 years ago, minorities in Greece were taking sides with the major forces fighting in WW2 (Communists, Fascists, Greeks, Germans, Italians, Bulgarians) often at the expense of Greece...Having said that, ethnic Greeks did not fare much better with their share of treason, carnage, looting and raping, often against other ethnic Greeks. By the way, who are these "ethnic" Greeks? With an at least 3,000 year old written history and the continuous invasions, settlements and migrations of Persians, Jews, Romans, Slavs, Venetians, Genoise, Franks, Saxons, Turks, Arabs, Albanians, Vlachs and for the past 10 years, Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Kurds, Afhanistanis, Phillipinos and again Albanians, our "pure" ethnicity has taken quite a beating...yet, we are still Greeks even if our "blood" has traces of the people who came and went in our long, glorious, bloody and compelling history. Just take a walk on any Athenian or Salonikan street and you will see the complexity and diversity of the Greek "race"...From the short and dark Mediterranean types, to the tall, blond, blue eyed compatriots of Slavic and Germanic roots. GOD BLESS US ALL. George Gedeon ----- Original Message ----- From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos To: Simeon Magliveras ; Sent: January 10, 2003 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs > At 12:04 AM 1/11/2003 +0200, Simeon Magliveras wrote: > > >In response to Mr. Sotiropoulos, Democracy is not just the wishes of the > >majority but also the obligation to the minority and the obligation to > >protect less powerful groups from the selfish desires of the majority. > >History, time and time again has shown the powerful dealt with minority > >problem by assimilation or genocide. > > I am certainly not in favour of any genocidal tendencies, but what is wrong > with assimilation? The idea that one is a transplanted individual come to > live among some predominantly heterogeneous, indigenous population ought to > engender some respect for what is already established and acceptable to a > majority of the natives. Nobody says one cannot maintain one's identity > within a larger milieu, but to demand that the nation in question (any > nation) bend and alter its ways to accommodate often unwelcome newcomers is > a little much for many to stomach don't you think? Resentment and petty > hatreds are sure to follow. On the other hand, if everyone expects and > receives the same treatment, sooner or later assimilation will take > place. Short-term solutions are what political correctness and libertarian > ideologues are all about, but what about the long-term perspectives? are > there any? should there be? > > I am curious. Is there anyone on this list which questions the right of a > nation state to self-determination via a majority and democratically held > establishment? > > > Sotiris Sotiropoulos > Hermes Network Inc. > Toronto, Canada > 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST > http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services > "Home of the $8.75 Domain Registration" > > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > From helenkolias at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 21:10:59 2003 From: helenkolias at yahoo.com (Helen Kolias) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Invitation for Panel Proposals for the 2003 MLA Convention in San Diego Message-ID: <20030111051059.90167.qmail@web14611.mail.yahoo.com> Anyone interested in organizing a panel for the upcoming Modern Language Association Convention (which will take place in December, 2003, in San Diego), please contact Karen Van Dyck (vandyck@columbia.edu) or Helen Kolias (hdk1@cornell.edu). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From LYNGOS at aol.com Fri Jan 10 23:22:06 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Democracies and assimilation Message-ID: <175.14ebe7a3.2b51201e@aol.com> In a message dated 1/10/03 19:27:46 Pacific Standard Time, gedeon@globalserve.net writes: > By the way, who are these "ethnic" Greeks? With an at least 3,000 year old > written history and the continuous invasions, settlements and migrations of > Persians, Jews, Romans, Slavs, Venetians, Genoise, Franks, Saxons, Turks, > Arabs, Albanians, Vlachs and for the past 10 years, Russians, Ukrainians, > Poles, Kurds, Afhanistanis, Phillipinos and again Albanians, our "pure" > ethnicity has taken quite a beating...yet, we are still Greeks even if our > "blood" has traces of the people who came and went in our long, glorious, > bloody and compelling history. Just take a walk on any Athenian or Salonikan > street and you will see the complexity and diversity of the Greek > "race"...From the short and dark Mediterranean types, to the tall, blond, > blue eyed compatriots of Slavic and Germanic roots. GOD BLESS US ALL. > > > Let me understand it The Persians, Jews, Romans, Slavs, Venetians, Genoise, Franks, Saxons, Turks, Arabs, Albanians, Vlachs, Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Kurds, Afganistanis, Phillipinos, and again Albanians, are ETHNICALLY PURE, however since they crossed the flats of Hellas once or twice, the Greeks ended up with their ETHNICITY having taken a real beating. Let me resurrect Falmeraryer and give him the double good news, first there is not Hellenic purity, and next still in Hellas we do have some PURE minorities, like those "Makedonians" speaking the language of the Siberian Slavs, those Albanians speaking the Arvanite language from Thrace, those Pomacks from Asia Minor, and those Vlachs speaking partially the language of Homer! They MUST be PURE these "Ethnic Minorities" within the Hellenic area, otherwise, we should be searching for their Ethnic "components", after all, we are organizing Conferences for PURE minorities, are we, or not? Cheers! Regards to all...............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030111/a9e0389d/attachment.html From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 10 23:32:28 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:55 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Democracies and assimilation References: <20030110200005.29416.5958.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> <5.2.0.9.0.20030110183114.00ba3d18@mail.hermesnetwork.com> <001801c2b922$2e98fd00$5598fed8@globalserve.net> Message-ID: <3E1FC88C.CC550093@hermesnetwork.com> George Gedeon wrote: > I am a bit confused about Mr. Sotiropoulos's position on "majority" rule, > minorities, assimilation,etc. OK, with all due respect, I will do my best to clear it up for you. Forgive me for not being clear and concise the first time round. > > > According to his address, he is a resident and perhaps a citizen of one of > the most admired multicultural nations in the world where one can be a > GREEK, speak GREEK at home and in public places, send his children to GREEK > schools or after school GREEK classes, hold annual parades on GREEK NATIONAL > HOLIDAYS, enjoy GREEK FOOD TASTING WEEKENDS and other GREEK picnics and > dances organised by local regional associations from GREECE, publish half a > dozen GREEK LANGUAGE newspapers and periodicals (just in his city), pray in > at least 7 GREEK churches, proudly fly the GREEK FLAG in GREEK TOWN, fall in > love with a hilarious film about a GREEK WEDDING, and be free to stand > in the middle of any street and shout "I AM GREEK AND I AM PROUD OF IT", > and yet he, Mr. S., promotes assimilation, majority dictatorship and ethnic > and > linguistic homogeneity for Greece! Mr Gedeon, Although what you say is quite correct (i.e. that Toronto, Canada, is a wonderful multicultural milieu where "being Greek" is something one can "be proud" of at present), I must also point out that as a Canadian citizen I have a right 1) to my own opinions on whatever subject I please 2) to express my beliefs on whatever topic I choose as long as I'm not violating another citizen's franchise or property. That being said, let me clearly state the point that I am an opponent to the 'ghetto' and all its ramifications and manifestations in ANY setting. I believe ghettoizing tendencies generally do more harm than good within ANY host society (CANADA included). I am not looking at this as a Greek, nor as a Canadian. I am looking at the matter as a pragmatist. You may have a different opinion about the value of ethnological segregation as a social-economic-political phenomenon within any given State, and I certainly do not begrudge you that. But, all I have been saying from the start was that I do not share or value such ideas, and I question the very premise(s) upon which they are founded. It's the melting pot versus the tossed salad argument and I'm simply taking a side. I trust you do not take issue with my right to freedom of conscience? Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services From gcamp at bryant.edu Sat Jan 11 11:49:24 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs References: <20030110200005.29416.5958.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> <5.2.0.9.0.20030110183114.00ba3d18@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <3E207544.90EC7DC8@bryant.edu> I do. I think "self-determiantion" is desirable in some cases, but undesirable in others. To apotheosize it is very dangerous as witness the fissiparous tendencies in ex-Yugoslavia where the entire country broke up into fragments which then sub-fragmented, e.g., BiH broke into Republik Srpska and Republik Hvatska as the Serb minority insisted on its "right" to national self-determination, the Croat minority ditto, and this then forced the "Bosniaks" or Muslims to convert their religious minority claim into a national self-determination one! Where one draws the line as fragmentation and subdivision become absurd is a *very* difficult moral, ethical, and political problem. The other problem has to do with the basic principle of the state. Should it be based on "ethnicity" alone. To do this means that the state is *not* a "civil" society but rather an ethnic one. Thus all 6 Yugoslav "states" were based on ethnicity alone as are the other Balkan states including Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, Romania, Hungary, etc. Now how can any of these states develop true "civil societies" if they are based on ethnicity when right across the border are similarly ethnic-based states which appeal to minorities within the first country, klp., Hungary with Romanians across the border, Romania with Hungarians, Macedonia with a large Albanian population who feel "left out" in a state which demands to be called "Macedonia" etc. Thus ethnic-based states almost beg for animosity and hatreds within their borders since the history of Balkan states is one of pressure by the dominant majority which considers itself the "custodial elites" against the minorities to conform to the majority's idea of itself. And this problem of majority-minority relations leading to the break-up of states applies to Russia in Chechnya, Ukraine, etc. etc. The only solution I see is to change the basis of the state from ethnicity to civil society with a slow evolution toward a unitary liberal democratic state as in Greece which Arvinitis consider themselves as part of the "Hellenic Republic" even when they speak Arvinitiki (as someone pointed out Melina Mercuri did) or Vlachs also etc. The problem remaining for Greece, of course includes Pomiaki, and so-called "Muslims" (i.e., Turks) who are occasionally exploited for propaganda purposes by Ankara. Thus Canada, the US, Australia, and now Britain which is "devolving" its local governments and thus encouraging its minorites (Welsh, Scotch, and Irish) to become even more "British" but *not* English! Glen Camp Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote: > At 12:04 AM 1/11/2003 +0200, Simeon Magliveras wrote: > > >In response to Mr. Sotiropoulos, Democracy is not just the wishes of the > >majority but also the obligation to the minority and the obligation to > >protect less powerful groups from the selfish desires of the majority. > >History, time and time again has shown the powerful dealt with minority > >problem by assimilation or genocide. > > I am certainly not in favour of any genocidal tendencies, but what is wrong > with assimilation? The idea that one is a transplanted individual come to > live among some predominantly heterogeneous, indigenous population ought to > engender some respect for what is already established and acceptable to a > majority of the natives. Nobody says one cannot maintain one's identity > within a larger milieu, but to demand that the nation in question (any > nation) bend and alter its ways to accommodate often unwelcome newcomers is > a little much for many to stomach don't you think? Resentment and petty > hatreds are sure to follow. On the other hand, if everyone expects and > receives the same treatment, sooner or later assimilation will take > place. Short-term solutions are what political correctness and libertarian > ideologues are all about, but what about the long-term perspectives? are > there any? should there be? > > I am curious. Is there anyone on this list which questions the right of a > nation state to self-determination via a majority and democratically held > establishment? > > Sotiris Sotiropoulos > Hermes Network Inc. > Toronto, Canada > 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST > http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services > "Home of the $8.75 Domain Registration" > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From gcamp at bryant.edu Sat Jan 11 12:13:31 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs References: <20030110200005.29416.5958.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> <002901c2b8f4$2f3c57d0$5322f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Message-ID: <3E207AEB.14CD378B@bryant.edu> I was directing my comments primarily at Sotiropoulos and my apologies if you thought they were directed to your comments. Your argument, however, that "minorities in Greece have been "naturalized" is a bit puzzling. Could you expand upon it a bit. Does it include the "Muslims" of Thrace who must be termed "Muslims" even tho' they are Turks because of the Lausanne Treaty? And would these"Muslims" as a "group" be considered "ancient Greeks"? I rather doubt that they or you would so consider them. On the "Macedonian minority" or "Slavophoni" you might wish to look at Karakasidou's work, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood" or Danny Danforth's "The Macedonian Conflict" or Hugh Poulton's "Who Are the Macedonians". Glen D. Camp Simeon Magliveras wrote: > I would like to make few comments about Minorities in general and in Greece. > Clearly Mr. Camp misunderstands where I am coming from. I posed these > questions not as a denial of Minorities in Greece but as a verification of > them. Clearly Minorities do exist in Greece as in every other imagined > community. Minorities in Greece have been naturalized ....always suggesting > that "this group" are really the oldest of the Ancient Greeks. The point is, > minority identities have been nutalised, sometimes by violent means if they > do not conform. > Interestingly enough the largest objections to the existence of endogenous > minorities are from people whose identities are most at risk of being a > member or non-member of a specific group such as members of the Diaspora or > people living on the borderlands. Their identify is most threatened. > Identities are complex and flexible. Is a Greek-American Greek or American > first? I don't think such questions can be answered in an either/or way. > Merkouri never denied being an Arvanitisa but said rather "so what, so is > half of Greece. Presently with the influx of Albanians in the country being > an arvanite is not so cut and dry. Clearly people feel very strongly about > whatever identity they adhere to. I would never deny anyone's Greekness. But > as academic it is important to realise the mechanism which produce them and > also suppress other identities. > > In response to Mr. Sotiropoulos, Democracy is not just the wishes of the > majority but also the obligation to the minority and the obligation to > protect less powerful groups from the selfish desires of the majority. > History, time and time again has shown the powerful dealt with minority > problem by assimilation or genocide. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 10:00 PM > Subject: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs > > > Send MGSA-L mailing list submissions to > > mgsa-l@uci.edu > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > mgsa-l-request@uci.edu > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > mgsa-l-admin@uci.edu > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of MGSA-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. help with refugee work (Peter A. Bien) > > 2. Re: Minorities?? (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) > > 3. Re: Minorities?? (Glen D. Camp) > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: 10 Jan 2003 08:15:13 EST > > From: Peter.A.Bien@Dartmouth.EDU (Peter A. Bien) > > To: MGSA-L@uci.edu > > Subject: [MGSA-L] help with refugee work > > > > Dear Friends, > > This message comes from a former Dartmouth student and Olympic > athlete, Don Morgan Nielsen, who has been residing in Greece for over a > decade, working mostly with refugees. What he describes here is extremely > important. If you can help Don in his work with refugees, please respond > directly to him. His e-mail is: dmn@otenet.gr His mailing address is > Palama 40, 154-51 Neo Psychiko. His telephone in Athens is 011 30 210 > 67.28.700. > > Peter Bien > > > > > > Dear Peter, > > > > After ten years of pleading and pushing, a newly > > constituted board of Doctors of the World-Greece has finally > > given me the go-ahead to create a professionally run > > office and to actually PLAN missions BEFORE launching them! > > - setting up refugee camps and medical clinics in Syria, > > Jordan and Iran - and preparing to supply children's > > hospitals in Bhagdad. In Greece we are strengthening > > our refugee reception programs and facilities, including > > mobile clinics for the islands. Even if nothing happens > > from Bush, we still need to mobilize and get ready - and > > find a way to engage and employ Greek youth in > > something other than video games. > > > > George Papandreou is doing fantastic preventative > > work, and Turkey, luckily, seems to be holding fast for the > > moment. If war breaks out, though, we may be given > > the responsibility to organize one entire Greek-run > > refugee camp of 50-100,000 people, with up to one hundred > > medical clinics (including some telemedicine clinics > > and surgeries). If you know anyone in the U.S., > > prominent Greek doctors or Diaspora community leaders, > > etc. who you think might be interested in assisting in some way, > > please let me know. We'll have an equipped and staffed > > office on Stadiou Street in the center in one more week, thanks > > to the University, and I've already found a project manager, > > secretary and database manager. We're gearing up Project > > Nausica - refugee reception program for the islands and coastal towns, > > Project Nepheli for refugee children (immediate medical, dietary, > > psychological care - clothes and schooling), the Pendeli refugee camp > > still needs refurbishing, but the polyclinic in the center is ready. > > Working in Syria and Iran presents daunting and almost > > hallucinatory scenes of bureaucratic denial, but we are making > > headway there thanks to Greece's foundation of careful diplomacy > > in that region. > > > > Yours very truly, > > > > Don > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:18:59 -0500 > > From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos > > Organization: Hermes Network, Inc. > > CC: MGSA-L@uci.edu > > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? > > > > Hello and Happy New Year to All, > > > > I am new to this list and I'm no expert on Greece, but I > > could not restrain mysef from taking part in this > > particular thread. I am almost certain that Melina > > Merkouri considered herself to be Greek before anything > > else (but she's dead so chances are we won't be able to > > verify my assertion). As to the issue of minorities, my > > own opinion does not jibe with the politially correct, > > libertarian concepts that some of you have been > > proposing. A democracy is about rule by the majority of > > the voting populace period. The very idea of special > > interest minority groups imposing upon the will of the > > majority is anathema to the very concept of democratic > > representation and rule. No 'minority' groups ought to be > > given special rights or considerations within any society > > that professes to be 'democratic'. If you live (or intend > > to live) in Greece, assimilation is the best way to go > > about being accepted by your Greek neighbours. Strangers > > are always and everywhere looked upon with suspicion, most > > especially these days. So yes, I believe minorities and > > the granting of special rights within an existing > > political commonwealth to any 'minority' group is > > threatening to the general populace at large, and ought to > > be discouraged in the strongest possible terms. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Sotiris Sotiropoulos > > Hermes Network Inc. > > Toronto, Canada > > 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST > > http://hermesnetwork.com > > > > Simeon Magliveras wrote: > > > > > Why is the idea of old or new minorities in Greece so > > > theatening to many people? Are minorities > > > threatening? Melina Merkouri was an Arvanite and spoke > > > Arvanitika. Was she a member of a minority? And if so, > > > what is its implications? > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:42:38 -0500 > > From: "Glen D. Camp" > > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? > > To: Simeon Magliveras > > Cc: MGSA-L@uci.edu, "Glen D. Camp" > > > > I'm afraid that Mr. Magliveras does not truly understand that Greece, > > like most European developed democracies, is in fact composed of both > > majority and min- > > ority groups. A brief reading of Le Contrat Social by Jean Jacques > > Rousseau > > will reveal the terrible danger of a democracy undiluted by liberal > > humane principles. > > There is *no right* in Roussea against the "volonte general" or "general > > will" of > > the majority. Thus one can easily have a "majoritarian totalitarianism" > > which is > > what democracy unalloyed by liberal humanitarians can become. > > After all, Hitler was elected in 1932/33 by a plurality (41%) of the > > German > > people and having studied the matter for many years I think it's fair to > > say that > > a *majority* of the German people supported him at various times. And > > his > > majoritarian "democratic" totalitarianism remains as a reminder of what > > happened > > to "minorities" in Nazi Germany such as the Jews, Socialists, Christian > > activists, > > and gays. > > I do not in any sense wish to compare Nazi Germany with Greece--even > > under the Junta or Metaxis's fascist dictatorship--just to point out the > > ultimate logic of Mr. > > Magliveras' point of view when carried to its inexorable conclusion. > > > > Glen D. Camp > > > > > > Simeon Magliveras wrote: > > > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > > Encoding: 7BIT > > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > > > > > > End of MGSA-L Digest > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Sat Jan 11 12:26:41 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs References: <20030110200005.29416.5958.Mailman@maillists.nac.uci.edu> <002901c2b8f4$2f3c57d0$5322f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> <3E207AEB.14CD378B@bryant.edu> Message-ID: <3E207E01.C645082B@hermesnetwork.com> "Glen D. Camp" wrote: > I was directing my comments primarily at Sotiropoulos That's a rather rude form of address, don't you think? Have I direspected you somehow? I think not. Let's not forget our manners. I prefer Sotiris, Sotiris Sotiropoulos, or Mr. Sotiropoulos. Thank You. Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com From orichalch at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 12:44:10 2003 From: orichalch at yahoo.com (Orrin Charles) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <3E207E01.C645082B@hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <20030111204410.9796.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote: > "Glen D. Camp" wrote: > > > I was directing my comments primarily at > Sotiropoulos > > That's a rather rude form of address, don't you > think? Have I direspected you > somehow? I think not. Let's not forget our > manners. I prefer Sotiris, Sotiris > Sotiropoulos, or Mr. Sotiropoulos. Oh BOOHOOHOO! Did someone hurt your feelings Mr. High nd F-ing Mighty? ===== Best Regards, Orrin Charles "A very cunning trick, that!" cried Socrates, "for ever since the death of Sinis, Sceiron and Procrustes no one injures strangers!" -XENOPHON, Memorabilia, II. i. 14 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From orichalch at yahoo.com Sat Jan 11 13:10:36 2003 From: orichalch at yahoo.com (Orrin Charles) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Jews, Gypsies, Pomacks, Macedonians, Albanians, but NO GREEKS in Greece! In-Reply-To: <200301061608.LAA29679@changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <20030111211036.88353.qmail@web40013.mail.yahoo.com> LYNGOS@aol.com wrote: "Let me understand it The Persians, Jews, Romans, Slavs, Venetians, Genoise, Franks, Saxons, Turks, Arabs, Albanians, Vlachs, Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Kurds, Afganistanis, Phillipinos, and again Albanians, are ETHNICALLY PURE, however since they crossed the flats of Hellas once or twice, the Greeks ended up with their ETHNICITY having taken a real beating. Let me resurrect Falmeraryer and give him the double good news, first there is not Hellenic purity, and next still in Hellas we do have some PURE minorities, like those "Makedonians" speaking the language of the Siberian Slavs, those Albanians speaking the Arvanite language from Thrace, those Pomacks from Asia Minor, and those Vlachs speaking partially the language of Homer! They MUST be PURE these "Ethnic Minorities" within the Hellenic area, otherwise, we should be searching for their Ethnic "components", after all, we are organizing Conferences for PURE minorities, are we, or not?" ------ Mr. Lyngos, didn't you know that EVERYBODY in Greece except "the Greeks" are unsullied descendants of original peoples? Ask the kibbutz-trained cadres of the Helsinki group, I'm sure they'd be happy to point this out... :-) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From iatridesj1 at southernct.edu Sat Jan 11 14:08:46 2003 From: iatridesj1 at southernct.edu (John Iatrides) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] New Chair in MGS Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030111164539.00aa73e0@mail.southernct.edu> NEW CHAIR IN HELLENIC AND MODERN GREEK STUDIES Western Connecticut State University has received a pledge of a $1.1 million endowment gift from the Deno and Marie Macricostas Family Foundation of Danbury, Connecticut, to be used for the following purposes: * Establish an endowed chair in Hellenic and Modern Greek Studies * Establish a lecture series to benefit the University and the Danbury community * Create a scholarship fund to benefit students that are recent immigrants to the United States * Recognize an Entrepreneur of the Year and fund student projects and activities within the Ancell School of Business. Welcoming the announcement, the Executive Director of the Modern Greek Studies Association, Professor John O. Iatrides, stated: "Beginning in the late 1960s as the labor of love of a small group of scholars, the study of Modern Greece in the United States has by now become well established in a growing number of colleges and universities, including some of the country's most prestigious schools. In most cases the introduction of an academic program focusing on Modern Greece has been made possible by the fundraising efforts of Greek-American communities (often assisted by the Greek Government) and, very rarely, by the generosity of one individual. Thanks to the extraordinary generosity of Mr. Deno Macricostas of Danbury, CT, Western Connecticut State University becomes Connecticut's first state university to develop a program and eventually a chair of Modern Greek Studies. Everyone who values the study of Modern Greek history, society and culture in the United States is grateful to Mr. Macricostas for his vision and generosity." * * * * * From info at caratzas.com Sat Jan 11 16:24:03 2003 From: info at caratzas.com (J S Philobiblos, Sr.) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <3E207AEB.14CD378B@bryant.edu> Message-ID: On 1/11/03 10:13 PM, "Glen D. Camp" wrote: > Your argument, however, that "minorities in Greece have been "naturalized" is > a bit puzzling. Could you expand upon it a bit. Does it include the"Muslims" > of Thrace who must be termed "Muslims" even tho' they are Turks because of the >Lausanne Treaty? And would these"Muslims" as a "group" be considered "ancient >Greeks"? I rather doubt that they or you would so consider them. > > On the "Macedonian minority" or "Slavophoni" you might wish to look at > Karakasidou's work, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood" or Danny Danforth's > "The Macedonian Conflict" or Hugh Poulton's "Who Are the Macedonians". This string appears to have raised a number of issues, with often very inadequate approaches in their subsequent development. We have witnessed recourse to generalities to the point of meaninglessness and error, paternalistic moralizing, and boring cliches. Since this purports to be an academic list perhaps the provision of dimension and context to issues being discussed would be more to the point. Let us start with very specific issue: the Muslims of Thrace are called that both because of the requirements of the Lausanne Treaty and because in fact they are ethnically NOT ONLY Turkish. They include, as most of us surely are aware, Turks, Pomaks (Islamized Slavs), and Gypsies. Now, as to the Lausanne Treaty, it is not just an arbitrary document but was the result of an effort to legitimate the resolution of the ethnic minority questions between Greece and Turkey. The treaty, as most on this list should be aware, required an "exchange" of populations between these two countries after the end of a decade of wars, beginning with those in the Balkans 1912-1913 and ending with the Greco-Turkish conflict 1919-1922. The collapse of the Sultanate and the consolidation of the Kemalist regime was accompanied by a genocide of the Christian peoples of Asia Minor (Armenians, Ionian and Pontian Greeks, Assyrians). Whatever Christian populations remained were required to leave to Greece (over 1 million individuals), while most Muslims in Greece were sent to Asia Minor (about 200 thousand). The Greeks of Constantinople, Imbros and Tenedos and the Muslims of Thrace (as well as the Tsamides/Chams of Thesprotia) ultimately were exempted from this process. (see Ladas, Exchange of Populations...) The terms of the Lausanne Treaty were symmetrical i.e. they assume comparable treatment of the other side's minority. In fact the Kemalist regime of Turkey systematically "ethnically cleansed" (to use an anachronism) the Greeks of Turkey during the 1950s and 60s and largely deprived them (perhaps robbed them better describes the process) of their properties. The Greek governments' response was weak and inadequate: instead of expelling at least the Turks of Thrace as soon as the pogroms broke out they applied a series of administrative half-measures meant to provide diplomatic leverage. This was an inadequate response because it exposed Greece not only to human rights violations charges, originally orchestrated by the Turkish regime, but also Turkish irredentist claims on Greek territory that are still outstanding. There has been much repetition of some of the currently popular cliches about the "rights" of minorities, as about the obvious right of a majority to rule. The fact is that there always will exist a tension between what guarantees for rights are claimed by minorities and the most basic of democratic assumptions, i.e. the rule of the majority. It has appeared to me that some who speak of tyrannical or simply unenlightened majorities depriving one or the other (real or imagined) right of a minority (perhaps subliminally) prefer some kind of minority rule by those who "know better." This may be a residual intellectual reflex of Leninist, Hitlerite or even racialist (as in Apartheit South Africa) origin. They need to be reminded that democratic Czechoslovakia ultimately was destroyed as a result of accusations of rights violations of the ethnic Sudeten German minority. Hitler successfully increased his demands for rights for the Sudeten Germans until the Czech state ceased to exist. Indeed, more recently, Yugoslavia broke apart as a result of secessionist processes initiated by Slovenian and Croat minorities. One last comment of an epistemological nature: it would seem to me that it is wrong to approach questions of ethnic or religious or other level of identity in the same way across different cultures over time and space. I have seen much by way of assertions on this list that the Vlachs or Arvanites constitute ethnic minorities in Greece. This is such a simplistic assertion, oblivious both of history and reality, that it is meaningless (and offensive to those of us who are part of one or another of these groups --my family background has much by way of the Arvanitiko, for example-- we never thought of ourselves as anything else that Romioi later Hellenes and always Orthodoxoi in family documents that I have seen that span 250 years). Greek identity is much more complex and ultimately historical than some fashionably two-dimensional "social science" approaches would have us believe. (cf. Stephen Xydis, "The Mediaeval Origins of Greek Nationalism") The identity of the Vlachs, Arvanites, indeed many of the Slavic-speakers, and most other groups in the Helladic area (and Asia Minor, before the genocides/expulsions) was primarily Rhomaic. It is gainful academically to study the transformation of the Rhomaic into a modern Greek identity and not invent minorities (in terms of consciousness) that in fact do not exist. The current use about "invented" identities may apply to the United States, a nation that was formed largely of peoples with distinct identities as these arose in the 19th Century, but it is clearly less valid for a region and a culture which is the product of historical processes that probably go back to before the Bronze Age. Aristide Caratzas From LYNGOS at aol.com Sun Jan 12 04:31:20 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <16f.1910ed6e.2b52ba18@aol.com> In a message dated 1/11/03 12:17:40 Pacific Standard Time, gcamp@bryant.edu writes: > On the "Macedonian minority" or "Slavophoni" you might wish to look at > Karakasidou's work, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood" or Danny Danforth's > "The Macedonian Conflict" or Hugh Poulton's "Who Are the Macedonians". > > > Glen D. Camp > One could also wish to look at Lyngo's work with regards the Vlachs in Hellas and more in general in the Balkans, and the "Makedonians" minority in Greece consisting of 4,051 registered voters. There are over 12,700 articles-postings in Googles connected with Lyngo's and more than 10,000 in the AOL database. Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030112/71362fb3/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Sun Jan 12 05:07:45 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <18a.145db0db.2b52c2a1@aol.com> In a message dated 1/11/03 11:51:59 Pacific Standard Time, gcamp@bryant.edu writes: > Thus all 6 Yugoslav "states" were based on ethnicity alone as are the> > other Balkan states including Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, Romania,> > Hungary,etc. > No such country is recognized by the UN, NATO, the EU. I don't see what is the point attempting to force a name upon the Worl, a name that was made-up by followers of Panslavism first, Bulgarian Nationalism next and Tito later. Let alone the fact that in F.Y.R.O.M., her so-called "Makedonians" linguistically, as well as religiously are in clear minority! Here they are, attempting to convince the World about their "Makedonian" Christian Orthodox Church, here they are attempting to convince the World about their "Makedonian" language still in the status of creation in the underground kitchens of Skopia, here they are attempting to convince the World about the "purity" of their "Makedonian" Ethnicity, in order to have the Muslims in religion, the Albanian-Vlachian-Turkish speakers and the Albanians in Ethnicity, surpassing them by hundred of thousands of people. Are the so-called "Makedonians" from F.Y.R.O.M. attempting to create a state for "themselves", or, they are attempting to create a Muslim-Albanian state, one in which the Albanian Muslims, if not today, in less than one generation -- given the low birth ratio of the rest of the population in comparison to the Albanian Muslims, will be in ABSOLUTE MAJORITY? What an irony! A........."Makedonian" state, dominated by Albanian speaking people, Muslims in their religion, where Orthodox Christians, Slav-and Vlachian speaking populations, and "Makedonian ethnics" will have to become a...........MINORITY. Kossovo should wait one more decade at the most for its INDEPENDENCE. Once we had the KOSovo-METoja, in a decade or so, we migh have the KOSovo-MAKedonia, or KOS-MAT, courtesy of some BLIND people in SKOPIA and their liberal "friends". Cheers, the next Conference on minorities, their languages and their religion will be much more interesting with many new members! Regards to all ...............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030112/09498702/attachment.html From rolandmo at pacbell.net Sun Jan 12 09:23:37 2003 From: rolandmo at pacbell.net (Roland Moore) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] An open letter to Mr. Orrin Charles Message-ID: <95C83420-2652-11D7-8811-000A27B3EB04@pacbell.net> Dear Mr. Charles, I regret to inform you that I am cancelling your subscription to MGSA-L. As you will recall, on December 9, 2002, I asked you to keep your discourse on the list at a civil level, and one further uncivil posting from you would result in the cancellation of your subscription. The following quote from your message of January 11, 2003 is precisely the sort of uncivil posting that should have no place on MGSA-L: ---------- Oh BOOHOOHOO! Did someone hurt your feelings Mr. High nd F-ing Mighty? ===== Best Regards, Orrin Charles ----------- Although in and of itself it would not have been enough to remove someone from the list, in this case, it was the last straw, the latest of many such rude postings. Remember, you were warned. This is the first time in over ten years of list operation that I have had to remove someone from the list. However, it might not be the last. Every time there is a flurry of rude messages, scholars of good will unsubscribe or delete every message in the thread, which means that reasonable scholarly exchanges of views are missed. We don't have to operate that way. Sincerely, Roland Moore Co-manager and founder of the list. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030112/4a52aa63/attachment.bin From JUNESAM at aol.com Sun Jan 12 09:32:20 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Early MSS Message-ID: <10d.1e14f8a4.2b5300a4@aol.com> http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2002/12/17/cz_sa_1217hot.html Ancient Manuscripts Found In Egyptian Monastery Martin Bailey for The Art Newspaper (Copied below but go to the link to see the illustrations - JS) ------------------ There is a marvellous book by Robert Curzon "Visits to Monasteries in the Levant " (1849) about his searches for ancient MSS . When he visited the "Souriani" monastery in 1837 he bought some MSS for himself and for the British Museum, rescued from of the debris in the old cellar under the tower.I think he would have been delighted to learn that these fragments were finally being recovered and restored. Curzon's descriptions of the his visit to Mount on Athos and his odd adventures in the Meteora (where he was escorted by a most friendly and helpful group of Klephts ) are one of the most delightful accounts of early 19th.C travel in Greece and are highly recommended to fans of Edward Lear (who later followed in some of his footsteps) June Samaras -------------------------------- The Monastery of Deir al-Surian A cache of manuscripts up to 1,500 years old has been discovered in a Coptic monastery in the Western Desert of Egypt. The find was made at Deir al-Surian, the Monastery of the Syrians, which already has one of the richest ancient libraries in Christendom. Set in the desert sands and virtually cut off from the outside world until recently, Deir al-Surian traces its roots back to the earliest period of Christian monasticism. Established in the 6th century, it was soon occupied by monks from Syria and Mesopotamia and is currently home to 200 Egyptian Copts. Deir al-Surian is in what was once called the Holy Desert of Scetis, in Wadi al-Natrun, a valley 60 miles south of Alexandria. Approaching it across the sands, the 40-foot-high walled complex, with its buildings and tower, appears like a ship--and hence the tradition that its architecture is based on the design of Noah's Ark. Inside, the monastery is centered on the Church of the Holy Virgin, built in the 7th century. A single completed manuscript and hundreds of fragments were found when reconstruction work was undertaken on the ancient tower, which is probably well over a millennium old. The library had originally been established there, since it was the most protected part of the monastery, but the first floor collapsed around five centuries ago, and a new wooden floor was simply inserted above. Recently the rubble of the earlier floor was removed during renovations, and curator Father Bigoul found a complete manuscript, embedded in a section of disused water pipe. (It is unclear if it was hidden there for safekeeping or got there by accident.) The parchment text has now been identified by Professor Lucas van Rompay of Duke University as a 9th-century Book of the Holy Hierothos. A painstaking sifting of the rubble removed from the ancient tower also led to the discovery of around 600 fragments of early manuscripts. The earliest one identified, from around 500 A.D., is a single page from a hagiographical text, and this has now been linked with a manuscript in Russia. The main part of the Deir al-Surian manuscript had been acquired in 1851 by Auguste Pacho, an agent working for the British Museum, but he sold it to the Imperial Library in St. Petersburg. The fragments found in the rubble of the tower are in very poor condition and will now require considerable conservation. For instance, the remains of a 9th-century ascetical text were found in the form of a half-inch-thick block of stuck papyri. When this was recently separated, it ended up as 83 fragments. These have not yet been "reassembled," and the task has been likened to completing a double-sided jigsaw puzzle with hundreds of missing pieces. Deir al-Surian's manuscripts have never been properly catalogued or studied by Western scholars, and until a conservation project was initiated three years ago, its literary treasures had been inaccessible to outsiders. Although the library was probably established soon after the monastery's foundation in the 6th century, it was enlarged after a visit by abbot Moses of Nisibis to Baghdad in 927, when he returned with hundreds of early Syriac manuscripts. From gcamp at bryant.edu Sun Jan 12 10:54:14 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:56 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs References: <18a.145db0db.2b52c2a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E21B9D6.79BD086E@bryant.edu> I thought we were over this spate of hyper- ethnonationalism! The whole world uses the term "Macedonia" for Macedonian. What are the citizens of that poor little state to be called, "FYROMANIACS"??? ;-) As for your population predictions, you're way out of line. G.C. LYNGOS@aol.com wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit From gcamp at bryant.edu Sun Jan 12 10:56:40 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs References: <16f.1910ed6e.2b52ba18@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E21BA67.FE40FEDF@bryant.edu> Pls. cite your texts or books etc. or articles in learned journals--I'd like to add them to my bookshelves on the question. Pls. do *not* cite Web Sites as they are mostly propaganda and I don't have time for that. G.C. LYNGOS@aol.com wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit From gcamp at bryant.edu Sun Jan 12 11:00:17 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs References: <20030111204410.9796.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E21BB40.14391CA6@bryant.edu> My apologies. No one has disrespected anyone here intentionally. I am solely interested in a calm reasoned discussion of sometimes conflicted problems of ethnicity. So with everyone's permission, I'll use the shortest form of address, listed "Sortis". I hope that's ok? Glen Orrin Charles wrote: > --- Sotiris Sotiropoulos > wrote: > > "Glen D. Camp" wrote: > > > > > I was directing my comments primarily at > > Sotiropoulos > > > > That's a rather rude form of address, don't you > > think? Have I direspected you > > somehow? I think not. Let's not forget our > > manners. I prefer Sotiris, Sotiris > > Sotiropoulos, or Mr. Sotiropoulos. > > Oh BOOHOOHOO! Did someone hurt your feelings Mr. High > nd F-ing Mighty? > > ===== > Best Regards, > > Orrin Charles > > "A very cunning trick, that!" cried Socrates, "for ever since the death of Sinis, Sceiron and Procrustes no one injures strangers!" > -XENOPHON, Memorabilia, II. i. 14 > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From gcamp at bryant.edu Sun Jan 12 11:29:38 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs References: Message-ID: <3E21C222.981B1A30@bryant.edu> An excellent analysis IMO. But--Some people do *not* internalize the same ethnic views which Mr. Philobiblos does from his Arvinite background. Now the whole point of minority analysis seems to me to find out who--in fact--regards themselves as say, "Serb" and who does not. For example, some families in BiH (Bosnia and Herzegovina) have one member who is Serb, one who is Croat, and one who is Bosniac! Thus internal vs. external ascription is essential in looking at this vexed problem. Thus Mr. Philobiblos is entirely justified in describing how *he* and his family feel about their nationality, ethnicity, etc. But others may feel very differently. And given the vexed and rather brutal recent history of the Balkans, the role of the Bulgarian Ethnarchy and the Greek Orthodox Church as well as Tito's machinations to create a "super-Macedonia" under Yugolsav control, the wide differences of opinion about internal or external ethnic ascription are not surprising. As to the Lausanne Treaty and the "Muslims"--Mr. Philobiblos both supports it vis-a-vis the "Turks" of Thrace but opposes it elsewhere in his very interesting analysis. Now *if* the "Muslims" of Thrace who are Turkic *feel* themselves to be Turkish and wish to elect their own Mufti who are we who are *not* Turkish to tell them that they are *really* Muslims? In short, what is the relative role of *internal* vs. *external* ethnic ascription? One finds the same problem between majorities who regard themselves as "custodial elites" of a particular national ethnicity vs. minorities drawn to different ethnicities with links to a "motherland" is most of the Balkans and Eastern Europe., This is why I feel that only a *civic* definition of the state can avoid ethnic antipathies and that an *ethnic* definition is a recipe for continual conflict leading often to efforts by State authority to "enthnicize" by force. Think of Bulgaria under Todor Zhivkov, for example, who tried to force Bulgarian Turks to adopt Slavic names and the Orthodox religion! The result was that many fled to Turkey (tho' some came back after the Bulgarians junked their Stalinist leader and adopted a more tolerant policy. Greece--to its vast credit--IMO--has led the way toward a civil basis for the state by refusing to place religious labels on identity cards despite the demands of the Orthodox Church. Kudos to Simitis and his Government! And I believe that over time, its few remaining problems of minority vs. majority will be worked out with tolerance and a civil society will be completed there. Glen "J S Philobiblos, Sr." wrote: > On 1/11/03 10:13 PM, "Glen D. Camp" wrote: > > > Your argument, however, that "minorities in Greece have been "naturalized" is > > a bit puzzling. Could you expand upon it a bit. Does it include the"Muslims" > > of Thrace who must be termed "Muslims" even tho' they are Turks because of the > >Lausanne Treaty? And would these"Muslims" as a "group" be considered "ancient > >Greeks"? I rather doubt that they or you would so consider them. > > > > On the "Macedonian minority" or "Slavophoni" you might wish to look at > > Karakasidou's work, "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood" or Danny Danforth's > > "The Macedonian Conflict" or Hugh Poulton's "Who Are the Macedonians". > > This string appears to have raised a number of issues, with often very > inadequate approaches in their subsequent development. We have witnessed > recourse to generalities to the point of meaninglessness and error, > paternalistic moralizing, and boring cliches. Since this purports to be an > academic list perhaps the provision of dimension and context to issues being > discussed would be more to the point. > > Let us start with very specific issue: the Muslims of Thrace are called that > both because of the requirements of the Lausanne Treaty and because in fact > they are ethnically NOT ONLY Turkish. They include, as most of us surely are > aware, Turks, Pomaks (Islamized Slavs), and Gypsies. > > Now, as to the Lausanne Treaty, it is not just an arbitrary document but was > the result of an effort to legitimate the resolution of the ethnic minority > questions between Greece and Turkey. The treaty, as most on this list should > be aware, required an "exchange" of populations between these two countries > after the end of a decade of wars, beginning with those in the Balkans > 1912-1913 and ending with the Greco-Turkish conflict 1919-1922. > > The collapse of the Sultanate and the consolidation of the Kemalist regime > was accompanied by a genocide of the Christian peoples of Asia Minor > (Armenians, Ionian and Pontian Greeks, Assyrians). Whatever Christian > populations remained were required to leave to Greece (over 1 million > individuals), while most Muslims in Greece were sent to Asia Minor (about > 200 thousand). The Greeks of Constantinople, Imbros and Tenedos and the > Muslims of Thrace (as well as the Tsamides/Chams of Thesprotia) ultimately > were exempted from this process. (see Ladas, Exchange of Populations...) > > The terms of the Lausanne Treaty were symmetrical i.e. they assume > comparable treatment of the other side's minority. In fact the Kemalist > regime of Turkey systematically "ethnically cleansed" (to use an > anachronism) the Greeks of Turkey during the 1950s and 60s and largely > deprived them (perhaps robbed them better describes the process) of their > properties. The Greek governments' response was weak and inadequate: instead > of expelling at least the Turks of Thrace as soon as the pogroms broke out > they applied a series of administrative half-measures meant to provide > diplomatic leverage. This was an inadequate response because it exposed > Greece not only to human rights violations charges, originally orchestrated > by the Turkish regime, but also Turkish irredentist claims on Greek > territory that are still outstanding. > > There has been much repetition of some of the currently popular cliches > about the "rights" of minorities, as about the obvious right of a majority > to rule. The fact is that there always will exist a tension between what > guarantees for rights are claimed by minorities and the most basic of > democratic assumptions, i.e. the rule of the majority. > > It has appeared to me that some who speak of tyrannical or simply > unenlightened majorities depriving one or the other (real or imagined) right > of a minority (perhaps subliminally) prefer some kind of minority rule by > those who "know better." This may be a residual intellectual reflex of > Leninist, Hitlerite or even racialist (as in Apartheit South Africa) origin. > They need to be reminded that democratic Czechoslovakia ultimately was > destroyed as a result of accusations of rights violations of the ethnic > Sudeten German minority. Hitler successfully increased his demands for > rights for the Sudeten Germans until the Czech state ceased to exist. > Indeed, more recently, Yugoslavia broke apart as a result of secessionist > processes initiated by Slovenian and Croat minorities. > > One last comment of an epistemological nature: it would seem to me that it > is wrong to approach questions of ethnic or religious or other level of > identity in the same way across different cultures over time and space. I > have seen much by way of assertions on this list that the Vlachs or > Arvanites constitute ethnic minorities in Greece. This is such a simplistic > assertion, oblivious both of history and reality, that it is meaningless > (and offensive to those of us who are part of one or another of these groups > --my family background has much by way of the Arvanitiko, for example-- we > never thought of ourselves as anything else that Romioi later Hellenes and > always Orthodoxoi in family documents that I have seen that span 250 years). > Greek identity is much more complex and ultimately historical than some > fashionably two-dimensional "social science" approaches would have us > believe. (cf. Stephen Xydis, "The Mediaeval Origins of Greek Nationalism") > > The identity of the Vlachs, Arvanites, indeed many of the Slavic-speakers, > and most other groups in the Helladic area (and Asia Minor, before the > genocides/expulsions) was primarily Rhomaic. It is gainful academically to > study the transformation of the Rhomaic into a modern Greek identity and not > invent minorities (in terms of consciousness) that in fact do not exist. The > current use about "invented" identities may apply to the United States, a > nation that was formed largely of peoples with distinct identities as these > arose in the 19th Century, but it is clearly less valid for a region and a > culture which is the product of historical processes that probably go back > to before the Bronze Age. > > Aristide Caratzas > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From historein at historein.gr Sun Jan 12 13:27:35 2003 From: historein at historein.gr (Historein) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] debate on history and historiography Message-ID: <001101c2ba81$6db4ace0$a5dbcdd4@compaq> Discussion on History and Historiography The IV international congress of history on ?Historiography of Modern and Contemporary Greece (1832-2002)? organized by the Institute for Neohellenic Research ? National Hellenic Research Foundation took place at Athens (29th October - 3rd November 2002). By the end of the conference?s proceedings, a public debate has started on the contemporary theoretical orientations of Greek historiography and in particular on the relation between postmodernism and historical scholarship. Favoring public intellectual exchanges the journal Historein: A Review of the Past & Other Stories hosts this debate at its website: http://www.historein.gr/index_gr.htm & http://www.historein.gr/HistoryDebate_gr.htm Historein will keep the list-members up-to-date with new postings to the MGSA list -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Historein: A Review of the Past & Other Stories www.historein.gr historein@historein.gr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030112/cd7dcc90/attachment.html From info at caratzas.com Sun Jan 12 13:30:41 2003 From: info at caratzas.com (Philobilos Entourage) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/12/03 9:29 PM, "Glen D. Camp" wrote: > But--Some people do *not* internalize the same ethnic views which Mr. > Philobiblos does from his Arvinite background. My whole point is that for the vast majority of Greeks their "background," as you call it is quite tertiary when it comes to national self- identification. Indeed the very term "arvanites" with its present sense (of descendant of Christian Albanian-speakers who settled the Helladic area over the last 4-7 centuries) entered the modern Greek glossary in the late 19th century (before that arvanites referred to Muslim Albanian-speakers). Christians in the Helladic area simply referred to themselves as Romans ("Romaioi or Romioi) and that identifications, combined with Orthodox Christianity became transmuted into the modern Greek or Hellenic identity. I would suggest that the same process applied to Vlach-speakers as well as to many Slav-speakers, though the last also were influenced by the Bulgarian national revival in the end of the 19th century. > Now the whole point of minority analysis seems to me to find out who--in >fact--regards themselves as say, "Serb" and who does not. For example, some > >families in BiH (Bosnia and Herzegovina) have one member who is Serb, one who >is Croat, and one who is Bosniac! Thus internal vs. external ascription is >essential in looking at this vexed problem. This in itself seems like a pointless exercise, almost like try to catch a bead of mercury, given that this is a dynamic process that is not very amenable to study on (to borrow a favorite "social science" term) the micro level. > Thus Mr. Philobiblos is entirely justified in describing how *he* and his > family feel about their nationality, ethnicity, etc. But others may feel very > differently. ... the wide differences of opinion about internal or external > ethnic ascription are not surprising. Other than the fact that this statement is introduced with fatuous and needlessly patronizing introduction it is a non-sequitur. > As to the Lausanne Treaty and the "Muslims"--Mr. Philobiblos both supports it > vis-a-vis the "Turks" of Thrace but opposes it elsewhere in his very > interesting analysis. Now *if* the "Muslims" of Thrace who are Turkic *feel* > themselves to be Turkish and wish to elect their own Mufti who are we who are > *not* Turkish to tell them that they are *really* Muslims? Again I don't understand the point. I neither "supported" nor "opposed" a historical fact that has determined much of the course of relations between Greece and Turkey, and by extension of minorities related to each of these states. In any case, I merely pointed out that Mr. Camp simply was wrong to lump all Muslims in Thrace under the label of "Turk." Except for the irredentist Kemalist regime of Ankara no one else does (perhaps the question of ethnic ascription should be applied here). I also do not understand the comments of the Mufti election. I do know that the Turkish consulate in Thrace is running amok and that the election of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople, nominally the head of millions of Orthodox around the world, must be approved by the secular Kemalist regime in Ankara. > In short, what is the relative role of *internal* vs. *external* ethnic > ascription? > One finds the same problem between majorities who regard themselves as > "custodial elites" of a particular national ethnicity vs. minorities drawn to > different ethnicities with links to a "motherland" is most of the Balkans and > Eastern Europe. I don't know to what problem you are referring; most other countries in Europe and North America (possibly in the rest of the world also) are governed by "custodial elites," and minorities with links to a "motherland" abound see for example the Austians of S?d Tyrol, the Danes of Schleswig-Holstein, the Germans of Poland ... And probably one day the Mexicans of Texas and California. What is the point? > > This is why I feel that only a *civic* definition of the state can avoid > ethnic antipathies and that an *ethnic* definition is a recipe for continual > conflict leading often to efforts by State authority to "enthnicize" by force. These are arbitrary categories, each of which is liable to abuse (as in the Clinton Administration tired to impose a *civic* definition of the state in Bosnia, Croatia and Kossovo and accomplished exactly the opposite. My point is that the creation of facile categories reflects an unwillingness to understand and deal with genuine diversity- and a consequence of such attitudes on the political level are "quick fixes" such as interventions. In fact this civic-ethnic definition is oblivious to history: conflict has been due to many other factors than just ethnicity both in the Balkans and elsewhere. To focus just on the ethnic factor is to distort the nature of reality, just as the marxists did by referring to economics or Muslim theocracies etc etc. > Greece--to its vast credit--IMO--has led the way toward a civil basis for > the state by refusing to place religious labels on identity cards despite the > demands of the Orthodox Church. Kudos to Simitis and his Government! And I > >believe that > over time, its few remaining problems of minority vs. majority will be worked > out with tolerance and a civil society will be completed there. Actually Greece has a significantly more tolerant society today by almost any index than most western European countries and the United States; with the exception of miniscule extremist splinter groups there is no anti-foreigner or neo-fascist political expression in the polls (as opposed to states of *civic* definition like Denmark, Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland etc., where xenophobic and neo-fascist parties have received upwards of 10-15% of the vote in recent elections (Switzerland over 20%). Given that Greece has received more immigrants per capita over the last decade than any of the above (probably close to 1 million people in a population base of 11 million) I would say that our *ethnically* defined state has some superior qualities, wouldn't you? Aristide Caratzas ------ End of Forwarded Message From montandon1 at earthlink.net Sun Jan 12 17:42:07 2003 From: montandon1 at earthlink.net (Thea Montandon) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Thanks Message-ID: <3E22196F.C0AFE060@earthlink.net> Dear Roland, Thank you Roland, and thanks to others who have been protesting about the use of insult and verbal abuse on the MGSA site, and for finally ending it. I was ready to unsubscribe from the list myself, and am glad I can once again open this mail without being apprehensive about what I will find there. I again look forward to communications with people who value reason and good will. Thea Montandon From john.p.nordin at verizon.net Sun Jan 12 19:41:02 2003 From: john.p.nordin at verizon.net (John Nordin) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" Message-ID: In the spirit of the new beginning to the list, let me pose a question about ethnic identity. Stepping back from the use of blood lines, or specific cultural influences as markers for that, let me ask to what extent identity in Greece today is formed by adoption of certain ideals? What I mean is this. 40 years ago in the US there was a theory (if not always a practice) that "being American" was not about DNA but about believing in the ideals of America, the "American Dream," and so on. Now we all know that certain groups weren't allowed to participate in this and that there has always been a "nativist" strand attacking this idea, but, the idea was there. You could be German and American, or French and American or Greek and American and you could have two ideates at the same time. Over the last 40 years, the US has turned away from that idea. To what extent has there ever been, or is now, in Greece the same idea: the being Greek is not about blood but about belief in democracy, economic opportunity or identifying yourself with the classical ideal, and so on? Again, I'm not suggesting that the US is some model to emulate. But I think the idea is a powerful one for resolving these conflicts and -- since to some extent the US would think it got these ideas from ancient Greece, to what extent is the idea alive in modern Greece? I don't know if George B. remembers a book conference in New York some years ago (we met and had lunch then) where a speaker talked about how you "did not have to be Greek in order to be Greek." That anyone could claim the ancient Greeks as their ancestors by believing in the same ideals they (sometimes) implemented. Not everyone agreed as I recall. John Nordin www.jpnordin.com www.theplaka.com From cvrhasd at techunix.technion.ac.il Sun Jan 12 21:59:11 2003 From: cvrhasd at techunix.technion.ac.il (Samuel Hassid) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] FYROM In-Reply-To: <3E21B9D6.79BD086E@bryant.edu> Message-ID: It is totally inappropriate that you lecture Greece on how to call the citizens of the neighbouring FYR of Macedonia. The whole world may use the term "Macedonians" - but the whole world does NOT have a province called Macedonia, which is itself larger than that republic. The whole world may mean the state whose capital is Sacramento when they say California, but if you are a mexican, it is legitimate that you refer to it as US California or whatever. If you feel any sympathy for the inhabitants of FYR of Macedonia, you are certainly aware that their main problems are NOT with Greece those days - in fact, they started when their NORTHERN neighbours got the idea that what has worked in Kosovo might work in other places. [From your previous messages, I think that you were yourself uneasy about that country calling itself Macedonia when a large part of its population are albanians and another small part identify themselves as bulgarians]. From gedeon at globalserve.net Sun Jan 12 23:47:36 2003 From: gedeon at globalserve.net (George Gedeon) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" References: Message-ID: <000601c2bad9$dfc69c00$16a3fed8@globalserve.net> Dear John: Modern Greeks are not the same people as their forefathers 2,000 years ago. Paul of Tarsus, Rome, 1,000 years of Byzantium, 400 years of Ottoman rule and colonisation, modern nationalism, war, invasions and other painful Balkan experiences, have created a new Greek race and culture that has very little in common with Socrates and Aristotle. Just walk on any Greek street, ride on any taxi, sit and listen in any coffee shop or restaurant, try to cash $100 of American Express cheques in a bank, read Eleftherotypia, Rizospastis, Apoyevmatini, Orthodoxos Typos, A1 and Stohos, watch ANY TV talk-show and observe national and local politicians during elections and you will realise that the modern Grekoi are a lot more interesting, colourful, diverse and a pain in the neck than their ancestors when it comes to allowing outsiders (xenoi) into our club. A few years ago two profound examples of our reluctance to offer the distinct and precious privilege of Greekness to others was all over the news: 1) A top student who happened to be Albanian Muslim was to be allowed, as is the custom in Greece, to carry the Greek flag at the head of his class during a Greek national holiday. When the Greek Christian parents heard that a non-Greek was going to carry the sacred flag, they protested so loudly, the boy withdrew his honorary service from the parade. Eventually the President of Greece (if I am not mistaken) apologised to the boy and made it clear that any newcomer to Greece who wishes to show his love for this country should never be discouraged or condemned for trying and that Greeks should be honoured and proud that new immigrants would want to carry the flag. 2) Not too far into the future, another Albanian boy won the Epiphany diving contest by finding the Cross at the bottom of the sea. He too was scolded for participating in the annual Christian tradition! Ask any Greek if he thinks that Greek Muslims, Jews or Romas (Gypsies), are "really" Greek, and don't be surprised by the answers you will get. GOD BLESS US ALL. George Gedeon ----- Original Message ----- From: John Nordin To: Sent: January 12, 2003 10:41 PM Subject: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" > In the spirit of the new beginning to the list, let me pose a question about > ethnic identity. > > Stepping back from the use of blood lines, or specific cultural influences > as markers for that, let me ask to what extent identity in Greece today is > formed by adoption of certain ideals? > > What I mean is this. 40 years ago in the US there was a theory (if not > always a practice) that "being American" was not about DNA but about > believing in the ideals of America, the "American Dream," and so on. Now we > all know that certain groups weren't allowed to participate in this and that > there has always been a "nativist" strand attacking this idea, but, the idea > was there. You could be German and American, or French and American or > Greek and American and you could have two ideates at the same time. > > Over the last 40 years, the US has turned away from that idea. > > To what extent has there ever been, or is now, in Greece the same idea: the > being Greek is not about blood but about belief in democracy, economic > opportunity or identifying yourself with the classical ideal, and so on? > > Again, I'm not suggesting that the US is some model to emulate. But I think > the idea is a powerful one for resolving these conflicts and -- since to > some extent the US would think it got these ideas from ancient Greece, to > what extent is the idea alive in modern Greece? > > I don't know if George B. remembers a book conference in New York some years > ago (we met and had lunch then) where a speaker talked about how you "did > not have to be Greek in order to be Greek." That anyone could claim the > ancient Greeks as their ancestors by believing in the same ideals they > (sometimes) implemented. Not everyone agreed as I recall. > > John Nordin > www.jpnordin.com > www.theplaka.com > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > From ssm at panafonet.gr Mon Jan 13 01:29:56 2003 From: ssm at panafonet.gr (Simeon Magliveras) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Minorities? Message-ID: <003d01c2bae6$717df600$bc22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Dear Aristidi, When national constructions of the state are looked at we deconstruct the mechanisms of how it is done. on one side the states (any state) says "we are strong because of our diversity but the reality is that the state tries to control this diversity within the limits of the model it has constructed. Now if Arvanites feel like minorities is a question we should pose to them. The danger is the modern state may fall apart eg. Yugoslavia. Arvanites were in the forefront in the 1821 revolution, Bonsais, Miaoulis, Ferreros, Bouboulina, Nikitara, Papaflessa, the Souliotes. But why does official history ignore this fact? Regardless of this academic questioning, Greek identity is a personal thing. I know it is a powerful feeling and I am the last to say anyone is or is not Greek. cheers, ssm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030113/c33e3f2e/attachment.html From AKarpathak at aol.com Mon Jan 13 05:38:33 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <2324D5E0.56942D81.09E588BC@aol.com> Lyngo, I no longer have the original posting. Perhaps the term "linguistic" was mentioned and I missed it completely. Anna K. In a message dated Thu, 9 Jan 2003 ?2:05:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, LYNGOS writes: >In a message dated 1/9/03 10:20:41 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak writes: > > > >Lyngo, if the groups mentioned in the conference program are indeed ONLY linguistic minorities, then they should have been defined as LINGUISTIC MINORITIES. nbsp;However, it is NOT clear that this is the case. nbsp; > >Anna >Read the programm and the title of the Conference, thats how the whole thing began. > From info at caratzas.com Mon Jan 13 05:56:22 2003 From: info at caratzas.com (Philobilos Entourage) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Minorities? In-Reply-To: <003d01c2bae6$717df600$bc22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Message-ID: On 1/13/03 11:29 AM, "Simeon Magliveras" wrote: Dear Aristidi, > When national constructions of the state are looked at we deconstruct the > mechanisms of how it is done. on one side the states (any state) says "we are > strong because of our diversity but the reality is that the state tries to > control this diversity within the limits of the model it has constructed. > I do not quite understand what you are saying; I am an historian and I try to study the evidence available. I think you are attempting to describe what the general mechanisms are for the creation of legitimacy for a particular ruling group. The rest sounds like the inevitable formulaic sloganeering related to this process. > Now if Arvanites feel like minorities is a question we should pose to them. I do not know who raised the issue of whether the Arvanites in Greece feel like a minority. In their absolutely overwhelming numbers they do not feel like anything other than Greeks; as you cite below, they were one of the main groups in the reestablishment of the Greek state. So there is no such issue here. > The danger is the modern state may fall apart eg. Yugoslavia. Arvanites were > in the forefront in the 1821 revolution, Bonsais, Miaoulis, Ferreros, > Bouboulina, Nikitara, Papaflessa, the Souliotes. But why does official history > ignore this fact? I do not know what you mean by ?official history?? If you mean the dominant school of historiography (i.e. Paparregopoulos and his progeny), then the answer is what I mentioned in a previous posting: the Arvanites, the Vlachs, many of the Slav-speakers and of course the Greek-speakers in the southern Balkans, the Helladic area and parts of Asia Minor identified largely as Orthodox Christians and as Romioi, i.e. descendants of the late ancient and Mediaeval unity known as the Eastern Roman or Greek Empire (Byzantium). In these perceptions, as they have been recorded over time, are to be sought the sources of modern Greek identity. There was no definition of minorities as it is defined by some today within the genos ton Romaion through the 19th century. To seek to define the past with today?s categories is often an anachronistic exercise and of questionable validity. * A note on some of the names you cite above: I presume the first is Botsaris, who was a Souliot; if the third name is meant to be Ferraios (as in Rhegas), he was a Vlach (hence not an Arvanites). I wasn? t aware that Nikitaras and Papaflessas were Arvanites. By the way, there was certainly no denying the fact of the use of Arvanitika in official circles: the manuals for the Greek navy as late the the 1850s were produced in that language (in practical recognition of the fact that most sailors spoke it, probably better than Greek). * > Regardless of this academic questioning, Greek identity is a personal thing. I > know it is a powerful feeling and I am the last to say anyone is or is not > Greek. > All notions of identity are both personal and collective, and indeed they take many forms and expressions. This probably is a constant in the human condition. Peoples who have a recorded past clearly have more complex identities that are not easily reducible to the kinds of rules or categories ?social scientists? like to invent. Contrary to these people understanding Greek (or Jewish or Chinese) identity or self-definition is significantly more complex process, requiring a much more extensive knowledge base than peoples for whom there is much less of a written record. Finally, when attempting to understand the institutions and mentalit?s of historic peoples (not only the Greeks, Jews & Chinese, but other non-West Europeans) I am certainly quite wary and question the validity of reductionist approaches deriving from disciplines such as anthropology, whose methodology and intellectual reflexes were first developed while studying groups with little or no written culture, or such as sociology and political science, that are products of strictly West European terms of reference. I hope I have given you some things to think about. Aristide Caratzas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030113/cbe07a8a/attachment.html From AKarpathak at aol.com Mon Jan 13 05:59:25 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? Message-ID: <42704C6A.696DA243.09E588BC@aol.com> Yikes!!! Minimalist form of democracy here. Go vote, if you want to, and go home!!! Anna K. In a message dated 1/10/2003 12:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sotiris Sotiropoulos writes: >Hello and Happy New Year to All, > >I am new to this list and I'm no expert on Greece, but I >could not restrain mysef from taking part in this >particular thread. ?I am almost certain that Melina >Merkouri considered herself to be Greek before anything >else (but she's dead so chances are we won't be able to >verify my assertion). ?As to the issue of minorities, my >own opinion does not jibe with the politially correct, >libertarian concepts that some of you have been >proposing. ?A democracy is about rule by the majority of >the voting populace period. The very idea of special >interest minority groups imposing upon the will of the >majority is anathema to the very concept of democratic >representation and rule. ?No 'minority' groups ought to be >given special rights or considerations within any society >that professes to be 'democratic'. ?If you live (or intend >to live) in Greece, assimilation is the best way to go >about being accepted by your Greek neighbours. ?Strangers >are always and everywhere looked upon with suspicion, most >especially these days. ?So yes, I believe minorities and >the granting of special rights within an existing >political commonwealth to any 'minority' group is >threatening to the general populace at large, and ought to >be discouraged in the strongest possible terms. > >Sincerely, > >Sotiris Sotiropoulos > ? ? ? ?Hermes Network Inc. > ? ? ? ?Toronto, Canada > ? ? ? ?416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST > ? ? ? ?http://hermesnetwork.com > >Simeon Magliveras wrote: > >> Why is the idea of old or new minorities in Greece so >> theatening to many people? Are minorities >> threatening? Melina Merkouri was an Arvanite and spoke >> Arvanitika. Was she a member of a minority? And if so, >> what is its implications? > >_______________________________________________ >List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > From LYNGOS at aol.com Mon Jan 13 06:13:20 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:57 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <12b.20014044.2b542380@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/03 10:55:27 Pacific Standard Time, gcamp@bryant.edu writes: > > I thought we were over this spate of hyper- ethnonationalism! The whole> > worlduses the term "Macedonia" for Macedonian. What are the citizens of > that> > poor little state to be called, "FYROMANIACS"??? ;-)> > > As for your population predictions, you're way out of line.> > > G.C.> Dear Mr. gcamp I will appreciate the fact that you call the Former Yugoslavian Republic Of Macedonia by its official name. It is the OFFICIAL and ONLY name and it is highly offensive to Hellenes and personally to me and my family who fought, so Macedonia would be reunited with Hellas, since the Macedonians were and are Hellenes. A state, in which only an 18% of the land at the most is part of the traditional Ancient Macedonia of Phillip and Alexander, a State in which only few hundred thousand at the most were considering themselves as true Macedonians before August the 2nd 1944, a State in which the Albanians are the clear majority among the multitude of its minorities, does not deserve to be called as Republic of Makedonia. In case you, or others matter of fact, keep naming such State as "Macedonia" or "Republic of Macedonia", I will complain to the list, and / or, I will begin using the term SKOPIA/SKOPIANS for the State and its people. The World does not call such State as "Macedonia", the recent experience with the NATO representatives during the renewal of the "Amber Fox" mission, calling such State by its official name as F.Y.R.O.M., is a clear indication, no matter if the president and the minister of their foreign office had to leave in the middle of the ceremony. F.Y.R.O.M. is planning to become part of an united Europe, but I can assure you that such task will not be an easy one if indeed F.Y.R.O..M. insists in using anything "Macedonian". It is over ten years now and the World did not licence them to be known under anything "Macedonian", under a no-name, name. There are sufficient forces in Hellas of true Macedonians, as well as in the rest of the World, that will make sure that such unfairness will not take place, and that Albanians, ex-Communist Serbians and Bulgarians and their languages, will be never become known as Macedonians. Additionally, the question is not for the World to know them as Macedonians, it is for us, the Macedonian Hellenes to ACCEPT them and NAME them as such. I don't think you can understand, you are not one of us. What was Vardaska Banovina, can not become Republic of Macedonia, what it was and is Hellenic can not become Albanian and Slav. The recent military operations, gave the opportunity to the World to learn finally what kind of people were living in the country which for the past ten years or so wishes to be known as Macedonia, and the verdict was a unanimous one, the people in there are Albanians, and Slavs, speaking an Albanian language and a Slav one. Can such people be baptised over night as Macedonians? Can such country from Vardaska Banovina be renamed Republic of Macedonia, according to standards and reasons going back to the times of the second World War and that Cold War? As for my population predictions, they are absolutely not out of line. They were statistics and statistics never lie. For each non-Albanian child born in F.Y.R.O.M., six, yes, six Albanian children are born. Do you still consider my "predictions" out of line? Why do you think the Academians of F.Y.R.O.M., decided that an exchange of land for peace might be a good idea now? Simply, they realized that if is not going to be now, in the near future the entire country will have an ABSOLUTE Albanian majority governing them. And at that point, what it might have been an exchange of a small part of lands, might become an exchange of populations to the West and the East of the Axios or Vardar river.West Macedonia and East Macedonia? Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030113/01c965c0/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Mon Jan 13 06:16:49 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <66.2cf34b41.2b542451@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/03 10:57:41 Pacific Standard Time, gcamp@bryant.edu writes: > > Pls. cite your texts or books etc. or articles in learned journals--I'd > like to add them to my bookshelves on the question. Pls. do *not* cite > Web Sites as they are mostly propaganda and I don't have time for that. > > As I already wrote, my texts are scattered all over the internet, however I am preparing a book out of all this six years old work. If you don't have the time to search, as soon as my book is out, I will make sure that you'll receive a copy. Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030113/b26c2919/attachment.html From tkostop at enet.gr Mon Jan 13 06:05:53 2003 From: tkostop at enet.gr (Tasos Kostopulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece References: <12c.1fdebee8.2b4f18c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a301c2bb0c$e2ea6910$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Just to correct a rather permanent (but not always inocent) misconception: The Neuillly Convention (Nov.1919) for the "voluntary migration" of minorities between Greece and Bulgaria, DID NOT imply that those wishing not to leave their homes, accepted to be assimilated (linguistically or otherwise) by the respective nation-state. If we look at the original text of the Convention, it is clear that the "voluntary" character of the whole project refered ONLY to the decision to migrate and had NOTHING AT ALL to do with the alleged "choice of national community" in both sides of the border. This same Convention, anyway, clearly provides for the recognition and respect of the linguistic, religious etc rights of those minority members, in both sides of the border, that wished to remain in their countries of origin. In the end, however, both countries resorted to violence in order to get rid of their respective minorities (although this was not achieved completely -in the casa Greece of Greece, the "remnants" were some 200,000 Slav-speaking Macedonians, according to classified reports of the Inter-War years, 80-90,000 of whom were ex-adherents of the Bulgarian Exarchate). So, dear "Lyngos", there was never any kind of such a "deal", according to which "the ones that chose to remain" were obliged to accept "that Hellas in order to advance had to speak one official language, while they could speak any kind of language in the family". Similar assertions are nothing but a by-product of the propaganda, which the various assimilatory mechanisms (such as Florina's "Aristotelis"), well-fed by the infamous "secret funds" [mystika kondylia] all-over the Cold War years, advanced in order to destroy what they called "the cursed slavic idiom" of Northern Greece. I think, Lyngo, that it's time for all of us to leave the realm of myth and enter that of history. Tasos Kostopoulos ----- Original Message ----- From: LYNGOS@aol.com To: afilindra@yahoo.com ; mgsa-L@uci.edu Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece The Greek state has been placing restrictions to the ones not wanting to abide by the laws. If you are aware of such books, then, you should equally be aware that such restrictions were placed while Hellas was in a belligerent state with various of her neighbors or under martial law. Not to forget of course the exchanges of population between Bulgaria-Serbia and Greece, regarding the Slav-speaking inhabitants of Greece, in November of 1919, and the one between Greece and Turkey after the Asia Minor disaster. The deal for the ones that chose to remain was that Hellas in order to advance had to speak one official language, while they could speak any kind of language in the family. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030113/8aad86e1/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Mon Jan 13 07:00:09 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <22.34c9f26f.2b542e79@aol.com> In a message dated 1/13/03 06:31:42 Pacific Standard Time, tkostop@enet.gr writes: > Just to correct a rather permanent (but not always inocent) misconception: > > The Neuillly Convention (Nov.1919) for the "voluntary migration" of > minorities between Greece and Bulgaria, > DID NOT imply that those wishing not to leave their homes, accepted to be > assimilated (linguistically or otherwise) by the respective nation-state. > If we look at the original text of the Convention, it is clear that the > "voluntary" character of the whole project refered ONLY to the decision to > migrate and had NOTHING AT ALL to do with the alleged "choice of national > community" in both sides of the border. This same Convention, anyway, > clearly provides for the recognition and respect of the linguistic, > religious etc rights of those minority members, in both sides of the > border, that wished to remain in their countries of origin. > Mr. Kotsopoulos There was nothing "voluntary" back those days. It was the time of Nationalism, it was the time of each state attempting to establish its borders. Most of the people, as it was also the case later in 1922-1923-1924 all the way to 1955 were in most cases forcibly moved out of their lands and houses based upon 1. religion, 2. language 3. personal will. not in that order for the above cases. > n the end, however, both countries resorted to violence in order to get rid > of their respective minorities (although this was not achieved completely > -in the casa Greece of Greece, the "remnants" were some 200,000 > Slav-speaking Macedonians, according to classified reports of the Inter-War > years, 80-90,000 of whom were ex-adherents of the Bulgarian Exarchate). > Why not supply to us these "classified reports"? According to most of the so-called "Macedonian" as well as Bulgarian sites the ENTIRE population speaking the Bulgarian language and/or the idiom were not more than 250,000. According to our records about 65,000 left Hellas in order to establish their homes in Bulgaria. It would be very interesting to verify your numbers and it can be done really easy, since most of the so-called Slav-speaking populations were located around my land of birth and I do have plenty informations. On the other hand, one must not forget the flux of Hellenic and Vlachian speaking populations that had to leave Pelagonia and search a new home in Florina, Thessaloniki the rest of Macedonia as well the rest of Greece. > o, dear "Lyngos", there was never any kind of such a "deal", according to > which "the ones that chose to remain" were obliged to accept "that Hellas > in order to advance had to speak one official language, while they could > speak any kind of language in the family". Similar assertions are nothing > but a by-product of the propaganda, which the various assimilatory > mechanisms (such as Florina's "Aristotelis"), well-fed by the infamous > "secret funds" [mystika kondylia] all-over the Cold War years, advanced in > order to destroy what they called "the cursed slavic idiom" of Northern > Greece. > I think, Lyngo, that it's time for all of us to leave the realm of myth and > enter that of history.> I have absolutely no objection. And what might be the Historical truth? That "Aristotelis" was receiving secret funds in the middle of a triple occupation by the NAZIs the FASCISTs and the BULGARs? By whom? When? Better if you bring in here those proofs or yours asserting such "facts". If indeed 250,000 Slav-speaking people were left in Greece after 1920, where in hell Greece found all that Castor-Oil in order to feed it down to their throats in order to have them to forget their mother-tongue? Aristotelis was never an assimilation macchine, if you do indeed have such proofs bring them in here. Not only this, but the magazine "Aristotelis" was printed since its ideation by my father, in the printing -shop of KAZIAS, the editor at the same time of the only COMMUNIST newspaper in Florina and more in general Western Macedonia, yes or not? I have in here with me most of the issues of such magazine, and everyone can see who was writing, what, when. If you do have pro-NAZI -FASCIST or pro-BULGARIAN sentiments, I fully understand your positions, but again, I am asking you to back-up your assertions. There is one more thing to be explained in here and that is how 250,000 Slav-speakers left in 1920 in Greece, became 4,951 by 1995 or so. Any ideas? And don't tell me that the Castor-Oil did its job, because then, you must furnish us with the source of all that oil. Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". > > Tasos Kostopoulos > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030113/f4a3bf12/attachment.html From andronikos at froggy.com.au Mon Jan 13 07:07:41 2003 From: andronikos at froggy.com.au (Pavlos Andronikos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Minorities?? References: <004301c2b896$a449cb60$9a22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Message-ID: <3E22D634.765ACFCD@froggy.com.au> Simeon Magliveras wrote: > Why is the idea of old or new minorities in Greece so theatening to > many people? Are minorities threatening? They can be, especially when they identify with a powerful neighbouring state. Just look at what the Turkish Cypriots and Turkey have managed to do to the Cypriots. It is precedents like that which make other nation-states wary. Regards Pavlos From JUNESAM at aol.com Mon Jan 13 08:01:20 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Socratic Filtering of messages Message-ID: <61.2c0ea004.2b543cd0@aol.com> This little Greek fable was sent to me today from another list. Given the recent spate of hasty responses and impassioned opinions by some participants (both past and present ) it might be useful advice to bear in mind when writing e-mails Freely admit to often failing Filter Test # 3 <;-) June Samaras --------------------------- >>>From :GreekCulture@yahoogroups.com This could be true, I don't know, but I found it worthwhile to read "The Triple Filter Test" In ancient Greece, Socrates was? reputed to hold knowledge in high esteem. One day an acquaintance met the great? philosopher and said, "Do you know what I just heard about your friend?" "Hold? on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me anything I'd like you to pass?a little test. It's called the Triple Filter Test." "Triple filter?" "That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me about my friend, it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what you're going to say. That's why I call it the triple filter test. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?" "No," the man said, "actually I just heard about it and..." "All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend something good?" "No, on the contrary..." "So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me something bad about him, but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me? about my friend going to be useful to me?" "No, not really." "Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me is neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at all?" This is why Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem. <<<< From tkostop at enet.gr Mon Jan 13 07:42:47 2003 From: tkostop at enet.gr (Tasos Kostopulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece References: <22.34c9f26f.2b542e79@aol.com> Message-ID: <005f01c2bb1a$6cb63720$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Plenty of such material you can find (with the appropriate references) in my book "The prohibited language. State repression of slavic dialects in Greek Macedonia" (Athens 2000, Mavri Lista editions. For further information [in Greek only: http://www.blacklistbooks.com/first.htm ). For the list's sake, I shall look for them -and many others, as long as this specific question of the number of Slav-speaking Macedonians is concerned- and post the information about them in this page. You only have to wait for tomorrow or Wednesday. Tasos Kostopoulos P.S. 1. I never mentioned the number of "250.000" slav-speaking Macedonians you attribute to me repeatedly. The (now un-)classified documents I am talking about, estimate the numer of indigenous Christian Slav-speakers (i.e. not the Pomaks, neither the Slav-spaking refugees known as "Trakatroukides") between 160-220.000 all over Greek Macedonia (of course, not only the Florina area), although there are also some estimations -by the most authoritative assimilatory service, i.e. the Syllogos for Propagation of Greek Letters (SDEG)- that raise their number to 250.000 in the mid-1930s. After a detailed comparison between various such statistics (compiled by the Army, the Gendarmerie, the local Prefectures, SDEG, the General Directorate of Macedonia, etc) I have concluded that a number of circa 200.000 Slav-speaking Macedonians (including every national tendency among them: Greek nationalists, Bulgarian nationalists, Macedonists, pro-Serb, "nationally opportunists" and, of course, "nationally indifferent") is the most reliable of all, as long as the Inter-War years are concerned. P.S. 2. Statements such as "if you do have pro-NAZI -FASCIST or pro-BULGARIAN sentiments, I fully understand your positions", are not at all polite, I think -and it would be better to be avoided ; even if, "around your land of birth", such a labelling has been a constant, decades-long practice, used to undermine those arguments that were not in concordance with the "nationally correct" version of history, ethnology, linguistics, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: LYNGOS@aol.com To: tkostop@enet.gr ; MGSA-L@uci.edu Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Why not supply to us these "classified reports"? According to most of the so-called "Macedonian" as well as Bulgarian sites the ENTIRE population speaking the Bulgarian language and/or the idiom were not more than 250,000. If you do have pro-NAZI -FASCIST or pro-BULGARIAN sentiments, I fully understand your positions, but again, I am asking you to back-up your assertions. There is one more thing to be explained in here and that is how 250,000 Slav-speakers left in 1920 in Greece, became 4,951 by 1995 or so. Any ideas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030113/0ae5ce51/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Mon Jan 13 10:11:29 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <169.19226695.2b545b51@aol.com> In a message dated 1/13/03 08:08:14 Pacific Standard Time, tkostop@enet.gr writes:> > Plenty of such material you can find (with the appropriate references) in > my book "The prohibited language. State repression of slavic dialects in > Greek Macedonia" (Athens 2000, Mavri Lista editions. For further > information [in Greek only: http://www.blacklistbooks.com/first.htm ). > For the list's sake, I shall look for them -and many others, as long as > this specific question of the number of Slav-speaking Macedonians is > concerned- and post the information about them in this page. You only have > to wait for tomorrow or Wednesday.> > > Tasos Kostopoulos> No problem, it can wait. > > >P.S. 1. I never mentioned the number of "250.000" slav-speaking > Macedonians you attribute to me repeatedly. > Here it is: "in the casa Greece of Greece,?the "remnants" were some 200,000 Slav-speaking Macedonians, according to classified reports of the Inter-War years, 80-90,000 of whom were ex-adherents of the Bulgarian Exarchate). " So, lets wait for the "classified reports" and as well we will equally wait to learn which is that "casa" Greece of Greece. It would be interesting. >The (now un-)classified documents I am talking about, estimate the numer of > the Pomaks, neither the > Slav-spaking refugees known as "Trakatroukides") between 160-220.000 all > over Greek Macedonia (of course, not only the Florina area), although there > are also some estimations -by the most authoritative assimilatory service, > i.e. the Syllogos for Propagation of Greek Letters (SDEG)- that raise their > number to 250.000 in the mid-1930s. > Are you telling us that the Greeks were RAISING the number of Slav-speaking populations in Makedonia? Why should they do something like that? It should happening the OPPOSITE, in order to show the PURENESS of the Greek language in Makedonia. >After a detailed comparison between various such statistics (compiled by the > Prefectures, SDEG, the General Directorate > of Macedonia, etc) I have concluded that a number of circa 200.000 > Slav-speaking Macedonians (including every national tendency among them: > Greek nationalists, Bulgarian nationalists, Macedonists, pro-Serb, > "nationally opportunists" and, of course, "nationally indifferent") is the > most reliable of all, as long as the Inter-War years are concerned.> So it is YOUR own conclusion, right? Could you supply the list with YOUR reports as well as their ORIGINS? > P.S. 2. Statements such as "if you do have pro-NAZI -FASCIST or > pro-BULGARIAN sentiments, I fully understand your positions", are not at > all polite, I think -and it would be better to be avoided ; even if, > "around your land of birth", such a labelling has been a constant, > decades-long practice, used to undermine those arguments that were not in > concordance with the "nationally correct" version of history, ethnology, > linguistics, etc. > In that case you should think twice before offending the memory of my defunct father, as well as the actions of the organization of "Aristotelis". Aristotelis was the ENTIRE Florina, and fought against the triple occupation. We fought the NAZIs, FASCISTs as well as the BULGARS being Royals first and Commies later. Now, since you opened your mouth about "secret funds" (mystika kondylia", bring such accussations to be evaluated by this group. Here is part of your posting: "Similar assertions are nothing but a by-product of the?propaganda, which?the various assimilatory mechanisms (such as Florina's "Aristotelis"), well-fed by the?infamous "secret funds" [mystika kondylia] all-over the Cold War years, advanced in order to destroy what they called "the cursed slavic idiom" of Northern Greece." Talk to us please about all these "Various assimilatory mechanisms", bring your proofs about their existance, as well as proofs of the fact that "Aristotelis" was such an assimilatory mechanism, additionally proving that the organization was receiving "infamous secret funds" as well as the origins and the amounts of such funds, not to forget the proofs regarding the fact that "Aristotelis" was working for the DESTRUCTION of the so-called by you "the cursed Slavic idiom" of Norhtern Greece. I do believe in the fairness of the group as well as their ability of judgment. Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030113/d68fa60a/attachment.html From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 13 07:57:40 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:58 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] The Political Side of the Kutzovlach Affair Revisited? Message-ID: <3E22E1F4.A8C3708B@bellatlantic.net> Indeed, one wonders whether most Greeks nowadays are cognizant of the fact that according to the highly respected U.S. Library of Congress the Vlachic Hellenism is considered as a ?(Roumanian) ethnic minority? in Greece! [See INTRODUCTION, DEMOGRAPHY, ethnic minorities, Thessaly and Languages] http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/grtoc.html In the meantime, the Turkish foreign ministry, during a period of assumed d?tente with Greece, appears to maintain a keen ?academic? interest in this matter http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/01.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/02.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/03.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/04.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/05.htm It is in the context of this precarious political background that the semi-official European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages (EBLUL) envisages the ?reappraisal? and ?delineation? of an "(ethno)linguistic Vlach minority" in Greece. On 11-14 November, 2002 a ?closed door? EBLUL meeting took place in Thessaloniki with about 40 participants. The minutes of the conference can be found in http://www.eblul.org/pajenn.asp?ID=91&yezh=saozneg It is noteworthy that the elected presidents of the two main Vlach Greek organizations, "Panellhnias Omospondias Blaxwn" kai ths "Enwshs Blaxwn Episthmonwn", who were not initially invited, were finally allowed to attend the meeting. However, their request to have their dissenting views recorded in the official minutes was not granted. The official response of the elected Vlach Greek leadership was recently posted in the web site of Epirus News http://www.epirusnews.gr/pli/index.htm [see Archives/Arxeio Sat/Sun 16-17 November, 2002] [Please note that the text is in Greek. If your PC cannot recognize Greek fonts I will be happy to send you the text in ?latinized Greek? upon request. The text was not translated into English at this time in order to preserve the 'original language' of the official document.] Whilst I do not contest the existence of a small, perhaps negligible, segment of Greek citizens of Vlach origin that does not subscribe to a Greek orientation or identity, I am troubled by the 'bookish' notion of an 'ethnic Vlach minority' in Greece. Doubtless, the statistics may be markedly different among members of the Diaspora, including the descendants of autochthonous Vlachs of Thessaly, Macedonia and the Pindus mountains who emigrated to Roumania or other parts of Europe and North America during the latter part of the 19th century and early 20th century. Clearly, these Aroumanian Vlachs did not feel Greek but rather identified with the Roumanian national awakening of the mid-19th century. By the same token, there is also compelling evidence to indicate that the overwhelming majority of Vlachs currently residing in Greece declare proudly, explicitly and resolutely their Greek identity. http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020401a.htm http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020301.htm The long list of Vlach statesmen and politicians, clergymen, academicians, educators, and benefactors who contributed immeasurably to the building of the Modern Greek State stand as exemplary examples in this regard. Putting things in a historical context, non-Greek speaking members of the polyglot ?Rum Millet?, living or ?travelling? through Ottoman occupied territories of ?Rumelia? (i.e. the Balkans), such as the Vlachs, Arvanites (Arbinesi in Vlachic), and Arvanitovlachs (?Albanian Vlachs? ?Karagkounides?) constitute an inseparable part of Romiosyni and Hellenism. Let us not forget that these groups played a *prominent* role in the Greek War of Independence (1821), the Balkan wars, and in the shaping of Modern Greek identity. As British historian Douglas Dakin asserts, a crucial factor for the Greek success during the Macedonian Struggle (in the beginning of the 20th century) rests with the fact that the Greeks were fighting in an area in which the population was favourably-disposed and even related to them. A population with a profound devotion to the Ecumenical Patriarchate and express Greek identity even though was not, for the most part, Greek-speaking. According to Asterios Koukoudis " But if we then investigate which Vlach villages and settlements were liberated and incorporated into Greece at that time, we find that not only the majority of the Vlach people, but all the ancestral Vlach villages (apart from the decadent Moschopolis (Voskopoj?) and a few other exceptions, such as Gopes and Maloviste) now became an integral part of Greece." "When one examines the Vlachs? shifting demographic situation, it becomes clear that after the Balkan Wars (1912/13) the vast majority of the Vlachs (two-thirds according to Weigand) became Greek citizens, in addition to their existing identity as integral members of Romiosyni, the modern Greek nation. In 1912/13, of the 160,000 or so Vlachs whom Weigand estimated to be living in the Balkans at the end of the nineteenth century, 102,330 were in Greece, 30,830 in what is now Fyrom, 13,465 in Albania, and about 10,000 in Bulgaria, Serbia, Kosovo, and Bosnia. However, Weigand?s demographic records are by no means complete or absolutely correct, like others from the same period (such as the statistics provided by the Oecumenical Patriarchate). A completely different and certainly exaggerated picture is presented by the demographic reports and population figures drawn up by pro-Romanian writers (such as Margaritis and Rubin, and Boga), in which the deliberately inflated numbers conflict sharply with both the Slav (Bulgarian and Serbian) and the official Ottoman-Turkish statistics. So if we compare the disparate demographic reports and bear in mind certain unknown or little-known statistical data, it?s not hard to arrive at the firm conclusion that the Vlachs numbered at least 200,000 at the beginning of the twentieth century, and probably no more than 220,000" [A. Koukoudis ?Studies on the Vlachs. 2nd Vol. (Greek edition)- The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora.? Zitros Publications: Thessaloniki, 2000] Looking at excerpts from authentic Ottoman documents and statistical records one soon realizes that Greeks and Vlachs were consistently considered at least in the eyes of the Ottomans as a single group. Noteworthy in this regard is the ?Statistical Information from the Ottoman yearbook of 1902 for the Bitola (Vitola) Vilaet? [it should be noted that the URL http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/pasha.htm contains annotations from a Bulgarian perspective; according to the Bulgarians the interpretation of ?nationality? was based on language. In contrast, the Greek definition at the time was essentially an extension of the Patriarchal definition of the "Genos" and "Romiosyni" that is, it was based solely on ?consciousness?. Thus, the Ottoman definition in this regard would appear to be closer to real situation. That many Vlachs living in neighbouring countries view nowadays Greece as their Metropolis is perhaps best illustrated in the paradigm of the Vlachophone population residing today in Albania. There is no doubt that the historical preferences of Albanian Vlachs mirror their deep intra-communal divisions since the mid-19th century. The only difference is that today these divisions have become ?tripartite? comprising not only the traditional pro-Roumanian and pro-Greek camps, but also an amalgam of ?independent? groups. Without credible demographics or even ?opinion polls? it is impossible to assess the percentages of each constituency although historically, the evidence of an Albanian Vlach orientation toward a Greek identity is indeed staggering. From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 13 06:49:39 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:59 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] The Political Side of the Kutzovlach Affair Revisited Message-ID: <3E22D203.C53BAE2F@bellatlantic.net> One wonders whether most Greeks nowadays are cognizant of the fact that according to the highly respected U.S. Library of Congress the Vlachic Hellenism is considered as a ?(Roumanian) ethnic minority? in the Hellenic Republic! [Please refer to the INTRODUCTION DEMOGRAPHY ethnic minorities Thessaly and Languages] http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/grtoc.html In the meantime, the Turkish foreign ministry, during a period of assumed d?tente with Greece, appears to maintain a keen ?academic? interest in this matter (as evidenced by the infamous "dossier on the Vlachs", including among other things, Professor Tom J. Winnifrith's ethnographic maps )! http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/01.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/02.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/03.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/04.htm http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ak/05.htm It is in the context of this precarious political background that the semi-official European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages (EBLUL) envisages the ?reappraisal? and ?delineation? of an "(ethno)linguistic Vlach minority" in Greece. On 11-14 November, 2002 a ?closed door? EBLUL meeting took place in Thessaloniki with about 40 participants. The minutes of the conference can be found in http://www.eblul.org/pajenn.asp?ID=91&yezh=saozneg It is noteworthy that the elected presidents of the two principal Vlach Greek organizations, "Panellhnias Omospondias Blaxwn" kai ths "Enwshs Blaxwn Episthmonwn", who were not initially invited, were finally allowed to attend the meeting. However, their request to have their dissenting views recorded in the official minutes was not granted. The official response of the elected Vlach Greek leadership was recently posted in the web site of Epirus News http://www.epirusnews.gr/pli/index.htm [see Archives/Arxeio Sat/Sun 16-17 November, 2002] [Please note that the text is in Greek. If your PC cannot recognize Greek fonts I will be happy to send you the text in ?latinized Greek? upon request. The text was not translated into English at this time in order to preserve the 'original language' of the official document.] Whereas I do not contest the existence of a small, perhaps negligible, segment of Greek citizens of Vlach origin that does not subscribe to a Greek orientation or identity, I am troubled by the notion of an 'ethnic Vlach minority' in Greece. Doubtless, the statistics may be markedly different among members of the Diaspora, including the descendants of autochthonous Vlachs of Thessaly, Macedonia and the Pindus mountains who emigrated to Roumania or other parts of Europe and North America during the latter part of the 19th century and early 20th century. Clearly, these Aroumanian Vlachs did not feel Greek but rather identified with the Roumanian national awakening of the mid-19th century. By the same token, there is also compelling evidence to indicate that the overwheling majority of Vlachs currently residing in Greece declare proudly, explicitly and resolutely their Greek identity. http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020401a.htm http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020301.htm The long list of Vlach statesmen and politicians, clergymen, academicians, educators, and benefactors who contributed immeasurably to the building of the Modern Greek State are prime examples in this regard. Putting things in a historical context, non-Greek speaking members of the polyglot ?Rum Millet?, living or ?travelling? through Ottoman occupied territories of ?Rumelia? (i.e. the Balkans), such as the Vlachs, Arvanites (Arbinesi in Vlachic), and Arvanitovlachs (?Albanian Vlachs? ?Karagkounhdes?) constitute an inseparable part of Romiosyni and Hellenism. Let us not forget that these groups played a *prominent* role in the Greek War of Independence (1821), the Balkan wars, and *the shaping of Modern Greek identity*. As British historian Douglas Dakin asserts, a crucial factor for the Greek success during the Macedonian Struggle (in the beginning of the 20th century) rests with the fact that the Greeks were fighting in an area in which the population was favourably-disposed and even related to them. A population with a profound devotion to the Ecumenical Patriarchate and express Greek identity even though was not, for the most part, Greek-speaking. According to Asterios Koukoudis "? But if we then investigate which Vlach villages and settlements were liberated and incorporated into Greece at that time, we find that not only the majority of the Vlach people, but all the ancestral Vlach villages (apart from the decadent Moschopolis (Voskopoj?) and a few other exceptions, such as Gopes and Maloviste) now became an integral part of Greece." "When one examines the Vlachs? shifting demographic situation, it becomes clear that after the Balkan Wars (1912?13) the vast majority of the Vlachs (two-thirds according to Weigand) became Greek citizens, in addition to their existing identity as integral members of Romiosyni, the modern Greek nation. In 1912?13, of the 160,000 or so Vlachs whom Weigand estimated to be living in the Balkans at the end of the nineteenth century, 102,330 were in Greece, 30,830 in what is now Fyrom, 13,465 in Albania, and about 10,000 in Bulgaria, Serbia, Kosovo, and Bosnia. However, Weigand?s demographic records are by no means complete or absolutely correct, like others from the same period (such as the statistics provided by the Oecumenical Patriarchate). A completely different and certainly exaggerated picture is presented by the demographic reports and population figures drawn up by pro-Romanian writers (such as Margaritis and Rubin, and Boga), in which the deliberately inflated numbers conflict sharply with both the Slav (Bulgarian and Serbian) and the official Ottoman-Turkish statistics. So if we compare the disparate demographic reports and bear in mind certain unknown or little-known statistical data, it?s not hard to arrive at the firm conclusion that the Vlachs numbered at least 200,000 at the beginning of the twentieth century, and probably no more than 220,000" [A. Koukoudis ?Studies on the Vlachs. 2nd Vol. (Greek edition)- The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora.? Zitros Publications: Thessaloniki, 2000] Looking at excerpts from authentic Ottoman documents and statistical records one soon realizes that Greeks and Vlachs were consistently considered at least in the eyes of the Ottomans as one group. Appended below is the ?Statistical Information from the Ottoman yearbook of 1902 for the Bitola (Vitola) Vilaet? [it should be noted that the URL http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/pasha.htm contains annotations from a Bulgarian perspective; according to the Bulgarians the interpretation of ?nationality? was based on language. In contrast, the Greek definition at the time was essentially an extension of the Patriarchal definition of the "Genos" and "Romiosyni" that is, it was based solely on ?consciousness?. The Ottoman definition in this regard would appear to be closer to real situation. That many Vlachs living in neighbouring countries view nowadays Greece as their Metropolis is perhaps best illustrated in the paradigm of the Vlachophone population residing today in Albania. There is no doubt that the historical preferences of Albanian Vlachs mirror their deep intra-communal divisions since the mid-19th century. The only difference is that today these divisions have become ?tripartite? comprising not only the traditional pro-Roumanian and pro-Greek camps, but also an amalgam of ostensibly ?undifferentiated? or ?independent? groups. Some of the latter are moderate whilst others are patently irredentist. A prime example in this regard is the ?Aromanian? nationalist movement in the tradition of Prof. Vasile Barba and the ULCA organization in Freiburg (Germany). An indication of ULCA?s orientation is the rhetoric against the Ecumenical Patriarch Vartholomaios that has appeared in recent years in the organization?s official publication Zborlu a Nostru. In this, His Holliness is described as a ?wolf? (indeed, an appalling insult that was, however, promptly denounced by moderate, albeit ?independent? Vlach members abroad). Without credible demographics or even ?opinion polls? it is impossible to assess the percentages of each constituency although historically, the evidence of an Albanian Vlach orientation toward a Greek identity is indeed staggering. From AKarpathak at aol.com Tue Jan 14 05:55:07 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:05:59 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <15F4893D.53E51A1A.09E588BC@aol.com> I have one question regarding all this mess: is anyone aware of a recent survey on self-identifications by the various linguistic groups in northern Greece? Based on simply my travels and scattered interviews with barely a sample of 30-31, and clearly not organized since this was never intended as a "real" research project but rather an attempt to get a sense of what is going on in the country, the issue of self-identity is not an either/or situation. Thus the question of a survey to be more extensive. Members of groups with "distinctive" histories use currently Greek as a national but also use the additional identity of "prosfygas" or "Pomack" e.g.. These latter are more "cultural" and linguistic rather than expressly political identifications. While the "prosfyges" do not identify as "Turks" they do value their distinctive additional language, folklore, music, dance, food, other rituals, etc. What I found with the Albanian immigrants was a bit more interesting, regarding the immigrant generation, i.e., adults vs. children. The adults consider themselves as "Albanian Greeks" or "Greek Albanians." All of the 6 (not a good sample, clearly) that I talked to said that while in Albania they considered themselves to be "Greeks" and began identifying also as partly Albanian upon their arrival in Greece--for me, this is a product of their marginalized status in both societies. The children's identifications, something that is probably much more important for the long term trends in Greece was much more messy. To quote one 15 year old boy, "I was born here but I don't belong here. There is nothing for me here. I want to go to America. And you ask me if I am Greek? That question is meaningless for me and it angers me. If I stay here I will go to the army. But I can't even get a job to help my mother support us. See this restaurant owner? You're giving him your money, your American dollars. You know what he said to me? 'Fige apo do re. Siga pou tha doso doulia se Arvaniti.'" This was in Chalkidiki, the summer of 1991. When "leftists" or "liberals" are talking about minorities in Greece,t hese are precisely the issues motivating them. Forget about the wars and identities of the 19th century and the 11th century. What about the now???? The morrow???? Unfortunately, the historiography on this from what I've seen so far seeks to "distinguish" ethno-linguistic groups in Greece from Greeks, bcz these historians are stuck on this ideal of a "Hellene", an ultra-naitonalist view which will only further add to the marginalization of these groups and REAL political conflicts. Greece is at a crossroads and Greeks had better take a more open approach to issues raised by immigration. That's my two cents WITHOUT A HISTORICAL approach to the "them" and "us" because we don't even know who the "us" and the "them" are CLEARLY through the ages. And personally, as far as issues of POLITICAL INCORPORATION are concerned, I see from the writings here and some of the media in Greece, this obsession of some of us to define people THROUGH an ideological history is destructive. Anna K. From AKarpathak at aol.com Tue Jan 14 05:56:49 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:00 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] question re: name day celebrations Message-ID: <7F2670F4.43072D05.09E588BC@aol.com> I have a question for the "religiously" minded on the list. Is it the case that only the Greek Orthodox among the Christians celebrate namedays, and if yes, anybody care to "theorize" as to why and how this came about? Thank you, Anna K. From georgenakos at mail.clayton.edu Tue Jan 14 07:31:45 2003 From: georgenakos at mail.clayton.edu (George Nakos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:00 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] question re: name day celebrations Message-ID: <9A2AE7C313D8F14E8498253BB764ED3C02A1862E@ganymede.clayton.edu> I am pretty sure that "name day" celebrations used to be very common in Catholic countries. In Latin America they still celebrate "el dia del santo" although due to North American influence birthdays, as in Greece, are gaining ground. It is interesting how certain customs that we consider "very Greek," are found in many parts of the world. A few months ago I watched a Brazilian movie set in the North of Brazil. It was Saint John's day, June 24th, and they were jumping over fires, like we still do in many parts of rural Greece. I guess the custom may have a pagan origin celebrating the longest day of the year. The interesting thing about this Brazilian movie was that it was based on a short story of the Albanian writer Ishmael Kadare!! George Nakos -----Original Message----- From: AKarpathak@aol.com [mailto:AKarpathak@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:57 AM To: MGSA-L@uci.edu Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] question re: name day celebrations I have a question for the "religiously" minded on the list. Is it the case that only the Greek Orthodox among the Christians celebrate namedays, and if yes, anybody care to "theorize" as to why and how this came about? Thank you, Anna K. _______________________________________________ List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From LYNGOS at aol.com Tue Jan 14 07:50:53 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:00 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <1be.1b3f21c6.2b558bdd@aol.com> In a message dated 1/14/03 05:55:07 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak writes: > I have one question regarding all this mess: > is anyone aware of a recent survey on self-identifications by the various > linguistic groups in northern Greece? Ask the organizers of verious Conferences on "Minorities' langugers". If they think there "Minorities" then they must have their numbers, or not? .?> What I found with the Albanian immigrants was a bit more interesting, regarding the immigrant generation, i.e., adults vs. children.? The adults consider themselves> as "Albanian Greeks" or "Greek Albanians."? > The majority of the "Albanians" arriving in Greece, are from the South to Genousos or Scumbi river. But that river was the divider between the Hellenic races and the barbarians to the North of it, till the "World" after giving those lands back to Greece in recent times, they returned them to the Italains and later to the Albanians. It is in such way we lost Northern Epirus, courtesy of our "good friends" the Italians of course. Now you understand why they wish to be identified as Hellenes, not to forget of course, that they are coming in Hellas, to find old family members in there since the early movements to the Southern Hellas from what is today Albania. >?? 'Fige apo do re.? Siga pou tha doso doulia se Arvaniti.'"? This was in Chalkidiki, the summer of 1991.? > For each similar case, there are ten completely the opposite. Why do you think that the numbers of the Albanians are and remain so high? Because they can not find jobs in Greece, or because they can? As for the Vlachs, the Vlachs were and are the ORIGINAL inhabitants of the land, the same land that around the 11th century was called "Megali" and "Mikra Vlachia", (Major and Lesser Vlachia) from Albania all the way to Mesologgi, and ALL the Hellenes living in there were known as VLACHS. And if our Philellenes liberators had not chosen back in 1830 to name the newlly founded Kingdom of Hellas as such, most likely still today we would have been known as VLACHS .............:)))))))) Regards to all...............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030114/4dbeec04/attachment.html From demotika at earthlink.net Tue Jan 14 10:09:46 2003 From: demotika at earthlink.net (Joan Friedberg) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:00 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] question re: name day celebrations Message-ID: George, The film you mention is "Behind the Sun" produced by Arthur Cohn and based on the short novel "Broken April" by Kadare. I saw the film at a screening Cohn attended and had the opportunity to ask him why he moved the setting from Albania to Brazil. The answer was simple: He felt the logistics of shooting a film in Albania would be nearly impossible. And he told me some of the traditions are the same in both locales. The novel on which the film is based, by the way, is quite a fascinating one about the entrenched tradition of blood feuds in Albania. On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 10:31:45 -0500 George Nakos wrote: > I am pretty sure that "name day" celebrations > used to be very common in Catholic countries. > In Latin America they still celebrate "el dia > del santo" although due to North American > influence birthdays, as in Greece, are gaining > ground. > > It is interesting how certain customs that we > consider "very Greek," are found in many parts > of the world. A few months ago I watched a > Brazilian movie set in the North of Brazil. It > was Saint John's day, June 24th, and they were > jumping over fires, like we still do in many > parts of rural Greece. I guess the custom may > have a pagan origin celebrating the longest day > of the year. The interesting thing about this > Brazilian movie was that it was based on a > short story of the Albanian writer Ishmael > Kadare!! > > George Nakos > > -----Original Message----- > From: AKarpathak@aol.com > [mailto:AKarpathak@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:57 AM > To: MGSA-L@uci.edu > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] question re: name day > celebrations > > > I have a question for the "religiously" minded > on the list. Is it the case that only the > Greek Orthodox among the Christians celebrate > namedays, and if yes, anybody care to > "theorize" as to why and how this came about? > > Thank you, > > Anna K. > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: > https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: > https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > - Joan Friedberg ........................................................................................................................................................................................................... Kypseli Greek Dance Center: http://kypseli.org ................................ Demotika Productions: http://home.earthlink.net/~demotika From AKarpathak at aol.com Tue Jan 14 10:51:17 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:00 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <2A0DEE4E.1D2E6857.09E588BC@aol.com> This came in from Samuel as a personal mail, and I do appreciate his/your personal response in pointing out certain errors. I decided to send it to the list bcz I'm sure others had/have the same questions. First, early morning is too difficult for anyone to type up lengthy responses, especially with less than a cup of coffee in one's blood stream--well, make that my bloodstream anyway. Second, doing the copy and paste from word files to aol doesn't always work and so we're back to the coffee in the blood issue, lol. The date is wrong. It should have been 2001, in fact, August of 2001, not 1991. (I'm still living in the 1990s I suppose, lol.) And yes, altho "legal" immigration began in the 1990s, it does not mean that there was no illegal immigration prior to that, or that people didn't cross the borders. People did. The point is that you have a case of a young man born within Greece, of a Greek Albanian mother who entered the country illegally. He will serve in the army bcz he is Greek born, in Thessaloniki, but faces problems in finding work. As I mentioned in the posting, I asked if anyone is aware of surveys, i.e., a bit more extensive data on labor market and political incorporation of immigrants than my own mere haphazard interviews with members of different groups in northern Greece. As everyone knows about ethnography, and in this case, a quite haphazard form of "ethnography" (which tends to be just a touch more systematic than simple 'in my opinion' or better yet, 'my neighbor...') we cannot go a step higher in talking about trends. I made that posting to raise issues of present experiences, possible sources of marginalization of members of particular groups which would lead them to consider themselves members of minorities. And so, the question still stands. As for the Borio Epirotes vs. Greek identity, the answer given depends on how the question is phrased. One of those other murky little sticklers re: identity. A full quote from another man: "Ime Borio Epirotis, sigoura kai ime Ellinas." The Hellenic schpeal is a Greek American phenomenon. A few lines later, "Ime Ellino Arbanos. Emis eimaste xenoi. San tous giftous mas feronte." Quite different sentiments expressed by the same person depending on the discussion at hand. As for the Arvanites vs. Arbano, sorry, its part of the copy and paste phenomenon, or lack thereof. I checked the word file and the word used is "Arvano." Anna K. In a message dated 1/14/2003 11:03:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Samuel Hassid" writes: >Dear Anna K. > ? I am not sure that you do not understand that some parts of ?your story >do NOT make much sense. In 1991 albanian immigration had just begun - a 15 >year old child of albanian origin could not have been born in Greece: in >1976, not only was the border between Greece and Albanian taken seriously, >but Greece was - at least officially - at war with Albania (diplomatic >relationes were established in the late 80ies). Albanians of greek origin >usually identify themselves as Northern Epirots (actually, even some of >non-greek origin tried to identify themselves as such in the 1st days of the >flux that followed the collapse of the previous communist regime ...). >Greeks do NOT use the term arvanitis for albanians who came during the last >years - they are called alvanoi - and have no problems employing them, >especially illegally at low wages. Illegal albanians are NOT conscripted >into the greek army. > ? I am not sending it this message to mgsa - just to you - I do not think I >want to add to what you call "The mess". > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: ; ; >Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 15:55 >Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in >Greece > > >> I have one question regarding all this mess: >> is anyone aware of a recent survey on self-identifications by the various >linguistic groups in northern Greece? ?Based on simply my travels and >scattered interviews with barely a sample of 30-31, and clearly not >organized since this was never intended as a "real" research project but >rather an attempt to get a sense of what is going on in the country, the >issue of self-identity is not an either/or situation. ?Thus the question of >a survey to be more extensive. ?Members of groups with "distinctive" >histories use currently Greek as a national but also use the additional >identity of "prosfygas" or "Pomack" e.g.. ?These latter are more "cultural" >and linguistic rather than expressly political identifications. ?While the >"prosfyges" do not identify as "Turks" they do value their distinctive >additional language, folklore, music, dance, food, other rituals, etc. ?What >I found with the Albanian immigrants was a bit more interesting, regarding >the immigrant generation, i.e., adults v! >> s. children. ?The adults consider themselves as "Albanian Greeks" or >"Greek Albanians." ?All of the 6 (not a good sample, clearly) that I talked >to said that while in Albania they considered themselves to be "Greeks" and >began identifying also as partly Albanian upon their arrival in Greece--for >me, this is a product of their marginalized status in both societies. ?The >children's identifications, something that is probably much more important >for the long term trends in Greece was much more messy. ?To quote one 15 >year old boy, "I was born here but I don't belong here. ?There is nothing >for me here. ?I want to go to America. ?And you ask me if I am Greek? ?That >question is meaningless for me and it angers me. ?If I stay here I will go >to the army. ?But I can't even get a job to help my mother support us. ?See >this restaurant owner? ?You're giving him your money, your American dollars. >You know what he said to me? ?'Fige apo do re. ?Siga pou tha doso doulia se >Arvaniti.'" ?T! >> his was in Chalkidiki, the summer of 1991. >> >> When "leftists" or "liberals" are talking about minorities in Greece,t >hese are precisely the issues motivating them. ?Forget about the wars and >identities of the 19th century and the 11th century. ?What about the now???? >The morrow???? ?Unfortunately, the historiography on this from what I've >seen so far seeks to "distinguish" ethno-linguistic groups in Greece from >Greeks, bcz these historians are stuck on this ideal of a "Hellene", an >ultra-naitonalist view which will only further add to the marginalization of >these groups and REAL political conflicts. ?Greece is at a crossroads and >Greeks had better take a more open approach to issues raised by immigration. >> >> That's my two cents WITHOUT A HISTORICAL approach to the "them" and "us" >because we don't even know who the "us" and the "them" are CLEARLY through >the ages. ? And personally, as far as issues of POLITICAL INCORPORATION are >concerned, I see from the writings here and some of the media in Greece, >this obsession of some of us to define people THROUGH an ideological history >is destructive. >> >> Anna K. >> _______________________________________________ >> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > > From AKarpathak at aol.com Tue Jan 14 11:04:08 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:00 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <5BCAEB72.3BCE1574.09E588BC@aol.com> George, thank you for the forward. The conference is not limited to linguistic minorities, rather these are simply some of the groups/issues discussed. Six of the 15 papers are related to issues of linguistics. I am in no position to give a group its identifying labels, names, etc. My assumption is that these scholars are reporting on their findings, they go into the field and later present what they find. If there is a group that defines itself as a linguistic or any other minority, I assume it is the job of the scholar to report this, and of course ask why, how, and all the other relevant questions. By denying this, I believe we are doing a dis-service to current Greece as well as to the data at hand. George, you get my drift??? Anna K. In a message dated Mon, 13 Jan 2003 ?9:32:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, LYNGOS writes: >Anna, here the original, take a look on the programm. > >From: ? ? ? Sevasti Trubeta lt; >trubeta.sevasti@berlin.de > >gt; >Date: ? ? ? 06.01.2003 >Subject: Conf: Minorities in Greece - historical issues and new perspectives > > >Historisches Seminar Universit t Freiburg i.Br., Osteuropa Institut >Freie Universit t Berlin >30.01.2003-01.02.2003, Berlin > >Supported by >Fritz- Thyssen- Stiftung (Cologne) > >Place of the Conference: > >Clubhaus >Freie Universitaet Berlin >Goetherstra e 49 >D-14163 Berlin >(Underground Station "Krumme Lanke") >Teilnahme nur nach Voranmeldung > > >PROGRAMME > >Thursday, 30th ? ? January 2003 > >9:45 ? ? ? ? ? Opening >Holm Sundhaussen (Berlin) >Vice-Director of Osteuropa Institut, Freie Universit t Berlin >Director of Department: History and Culture >10:00 Peter Haslinger (Munich) >Imagined Territories and Ethnoscapes - Ways to Conceptualize the >Role of Minorities in International Settings >Discussion > >10:30 Christian Promitzer (Graz) >The Body of the Other: "Racial Science" and Minorities in >Southeastern Europe >Discussion > >11:00 ? ? ? ? Coffee break > >11:30 Vemund Aarbakke (Oslo/Athens) >Adjusting to the new international framework for minority >protection - challenges for the Greek state and its minorities >Discussion > >12:00 ? ? ? Lunch Break > >15:30 Konstantinos Tsitselikis (Salonika) >Legal aspects of religious and linguistic otherness in Greece >Discussion > >16:00 Georgios Mavrommatis (Salonika/Athens) >Constructing identities for the Thracian Muslim youth: the role of >education >Discussion > >16:30 ? ? ? ? Coffee break > >17.00 Tasos Kostopoulos (Athens) >Counting the Other: official census and classified statistics in >Greece (1830-2001) >Discussion > >17:30 Philip Carabott (London) >The politics of constructing the "other": the Greek state and its >Slavic-speaking citizens, ca. 1923-ca. 1949 >Discussion > >18:00 ? ? End > >Friday, 31st January 2003 >9:30 Riki van Boeschoten (Volos/Brussels) >"Bratstvo i Jedinstvo"? Macedonian political refugees in Eastern >Europe >Discussion > >10:00 Georgia Kretsi (Berlin) >gt;From landholding to landlessness. The Relationship between the >Property and Legal Status of the Cham Muslim Albanians >Discussion > >10:30 ? ? ? ? Coffee break > >11:00 Dora Lafazani (Athens) >Migration as a tool in state's, group's and individual's strategies >Discussion > >11:30 Sevasti Trubeta (Berlin/Freiburg) >'Minorization' and 'Ethnicization' in the Greek society: comparative >Perspectives on Moslem Migrants and the Moslem Minority >Discussion > >12:00 ? ? ? ? ? lunch Break > >15:00 ? ? ? ? Christian Voss (Freiburg) >Sociolinguistic perspectives for the Slavic minorities in Greek >Thrace and Greek Macedonia >Discussion > >15:30 Alexandra Ioannidou (Athens) >Linguistic research in Greece: The slavic dialects in Western and >Central Macedonia. First observations and comments >Discussion > >16:00 ? ? ? ? ? Coffee break > >16:30 Claudia Rossini (Zurich) >Graecophiles and Macedonophiles: The clash of identities at village level >Discussion > >17:00 ? End > >Saturday, 1st February 2003 >9:30 Thede Kahl (Vienna) >Religious, linguistic and ethnic labels. The case of the Vlachs >Discussion > >10:00 Evangelos Karagiannis (Berlin) >Pomaks of Bulgaria and Greece - comparative issues >Discussion > >10:30 ? ? ? ? Coffee break > >11:00 ? ? ? ? Concluding Discussion >12:00 ? ? ? ? End of the conference > > >For information, please contact the following e-mail addresses: >Dr. Sevasti Trubeta > >trubeta.sevasti@berlin.de > > >Dr. Christian Voss > >Christian.Voss@geschichte.uni-freiburg.de > > > > >----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >Return-Path: lt;mgsa-l-admin@uci.edugt; >Received: from? rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v90.10) with ESMTP id MAILINZD14-0108113155; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:31:55 1900 >Received: from? maillists.nac.uci.edu (maillists.nac.uci.edu [128.195.200.213]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v90_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZD41-0108113135; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:31:35 -0500 >Received: (from daemon@localhost) >? ? by maillists.nac.uci.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) id h08GVX127844; >? ? Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:31:33 -0800 (PST) >Received: from maillists.nac.uci.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) >? ? by maillists.nac.uci.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h08GVVf27823; >? ? Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:31:31 -0800 (PST) >Received: from mta3.service.uci.edu (mta3.service.uci.edu [128.195.200.203]) >? ? by maillists.nac.uci.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h08GUXf27339 >? ? for lt;mgsa-l@maillists.uci.edugt;; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:30:33 -0800 (PST) >Received: (from daemon@localhost) >? ? by mta3.service.uci.edu (8.11.4/8.11.2) id h08GUVf18660 >? ? for mgsa-l@maillists.uci.edu.xyzzy; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:30:31 -0800 (PST) >Received: (from daemon@localhost) >? ? by mta3.service.uci.edu (8.11.4/8.11.2) id h08GUUa18651 >? ? for mgsa-L@uci.edu.xyzzy; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) >Received: from changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu (changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu [141.211.144.17]) >? ? by mta3.service.uci.edu (8.11.4/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h08GSth17696 >? ? for lt;mgsa-L@uci.edugt;; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 08:28:56 -0800 (PST) >Received: from [141.211.54.80] ([141.211.54.80]) >? ? by changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edu (8.9.3/3.2r) with ESMTP id LAA05952 >? ? for lt;mgsa-L@uci.edugt;; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:28:55 -0500 (EST) >Message-Id: lt;200301081628.LAA05952@changeofhabit.mr.itd.umich.edugt; >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) >From: "Artemis Leontis" lt;aleontis@umich.edugt; >To: mgsa-L@uci.edu >Mime-version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >Content-type: multipart/alternative; >? ? boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3124870134_325966_MIME_Part" >X-UCIRVINE-MailScanner: No viruses found >Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece >Sender: mgsa-l-admin@uci.edu >Errors-To: mgsa-l-admin@uci.edu >X-BeenThere: mgsa-l@uci.edu >X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 >Precedence: bulk >List-Post: lt;mailto:mgsa-l@uci.edugt; >List-Archive: lt;https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/gt; >Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:28:54 -0500 > > > > From gcamp at bryant.edu Tue Jan 14 11:08:13 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:00 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Thanks References: <3E22196F.C0AFE060@earthlink.net> <3E2328A2.601EFBA6@bryant.edu> <3E23A7F8.9596493D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3E24601D.69F97E18@bryant.edu> Thea Montandon wrote: > Dear Professor Camp, > > A mature and thoughtful observation, and one not often encountered, > unfortunately. I hope you've visit my sites stating my interest in helping > create a public library on Skopelos Island, Greece. Unbelievably, Greece has > few public libraries and a national library that we would consider a farce > ... unorganized, nibbled by vermin, etc. Though I don't expect to see any > fruits from my off and on labors, it seems important to follow this > inclination to share something as wonderful as a public library simply as a > positive gesture from this somewhat scary country of America that many Greeks > perceive as imperialist, perhaps rightly so ... and to share it with my > favorite place on earth. > > http://www.theasite.homestead.com > http://www.libraryforskopelos.homestead.com > http://www.greekisland.homestead.com (my homage to Skopelos) > > Sincerely, > > Thea Montandon > > "Glen D. Camp" wrote: > > > Amen, Thea. Free speech brings with it the obligation to be courteous to > > others since they may be right and we may be wrong! > > > > Glen > > > > Thea Montandon wrote: > > > > > Dear Roland, > > > > > > Thank you Roland, and thanks to others who have been protesting about > > > the use of insult and verbal abuse on the MGSA site, and for finally > > > ending it. I was ready to unsubscribe from the list myself, and am glad > > > I can once again open this mail without being apprehensive about what I > > > will find there. I again look forward to communications with people who > > > value reason and good will. > > > > > > Thea Montandon > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From gcamp at bryant.edu Tue Jan 14 11:09:59 2003 From: gcamp at bryant.edu (Glen D. Camp) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:00 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Thanks References: <3E22196F.C0AFE060@earthlink.net> <3E2328A2.601EFBA6@bryant.edu> <3E23A7F8.9596493D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3E246086.47DCCD12@bryant.edu> What a wonderful idea, Thea. Maybe you could start something on MGSA-L and discuss it with the folks at the Kokkalis Program at Harvard which is linked with the Government of Greece? Please consider me one of your first, if modest, contributors! Glen Thea Montandon wrote: > Dear Professor Camp, > > A mature and thoughtful observation, and one not often encountered, > unfortunately. I hope you've visit my sites stating my interest in helping > create a public library on Skopelos Island, Greece. Unbelievably, Greece has > few public libraries and a national library that we would consider a farce > ... unorganized, nibbled by vermin, etc. Though I don't expect to see any > fruits from my off and on labors, it seems important to follow this > inclination to share something as wonderful as a public library simply as a > positive gesture from this somewhat scary country of America that many Greeks > perceive as imperialist, perhaps rightly so ... and to share it with my > favorite place on earth. > > http://www.theasite.homestead.com > http://www.libraryforskopelos.homestead.com > http://www.greekisland.homestead.com (my homage to Skopelos) > > Sincerely, > > Thea Montandon > > "Glen D. Camp" wrote: > > > Amen, Thea. Free speech brings with it the obligation to be courteous to > > others since they may be right and we may be wrong! > > > > Glen > > > > Thea Montandon wrote: > > > > > Dear Roland, > > > > > > Thank you Roland, and thanks to others who have been protesting about > > > the use of insult and verbal abuse on the MGSA site, and for finally > > > ending it. I was ready to unsubscribe from the list myself, and am glad > > > I can once again open this mail without being apprehensive about what I > > > will find there. I again look forward to communications with people who > > > value reason and good will. > > > > > > Thea Montandon > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From tkostop at enet.gr Tue Jan 14 11:26:40 2003 From: tkostop at enet.gr (Tasos Kostopulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Here are the sources I reffered to, concerning (a) the number of Slav-speaking Macedonias of Northern Greece during the Inter-War years, and (b) the financing of "Aristotelis" by the infamous "secret funds" [mystika kondylia] during the Cold War years. There are posted here not as a reply to "Lyngos" (whose style and arguments I personnaly judge far from serious, anyway) but for anybody among the List members that could be interested about such things. A. Slav-speaking Macedonians during the Inter-War years 1. Education Bureau of the Feneral Diractorate of Macedonia (GDM), 1914: "more than 250.000" (that is, before the population exchanges but after the 1913 "departure" of circa 50.000 Slav-Macedonians) [Ion Dragoumis Archives, Genadeios Library (Athens), f.10, Eythymios Mpountonas "Notes on Law 568", Athens 19.4.1915, p.3]. 2. General Directorate of Macedonia, 1923: 167.897 in Central & Western Macedonia only (i.e. except Eastern Macedonia) [Greek Foreign Ministry Archives (IAYE), f.1923/B37.1, GDM A.Lambrou to Interior Ministry, Salonica 31.5.1923, Confidential Protocol, no.542 (quoted by Iakovos Mihailidis in his Ph.D., Salonica 1996) ; also, IAYE, f.1923/7.3, Foreign Ministry Secretary P.Lekkos to GDM, Salonica 31.3.1923, Confidential Protocol, no.394]. In Eastern Macedonia, GDM as well as the Greek General Staff found in 1915 no less than 48.000 Slav-speaking Macedonians [Greek Army Staff, "The population of Eastern Macedonia by nationalities", Athens 1919 (in Greek) ; Stefanos Dragoumis Archives, Gennadeios Library (Athens), f.217, doc.5 ; Eleftherios Venizelos Archives (Benaki Museum Archives), f.101]. A simple addition of those numbers, shows a total of ~235.000 Slav-speaking Macedonians on the eve of the population exchanges. 3. General Colonisation Directorate of Macedonia, 1924: 30.898 Slav-spaeking families with "slavic leanings" (slavizousai) and 26.865 families of "foreign-tongue speakers" (xenofonoi) [that is, with allegedly Greek "national consciousness"], almost all Slav-speakers (except some 1.000-1.500 families of Vlachs). [Konstantinos Karavidas Archives, Gennadeios Library (Athens), General Colonisation Directorate of Macedonia "Table showing the families that are not fullly Greek, their number as well as the foreign-tongue-speaking ones", Salonica 3.3.1924, no454]. 4. General Directorate of Macedonia, 1925: 173.734 Slav-speakers, of whom 76,098 ex-Patriarchist and 97.636 ex-Exarchist [document quoted by I.Michailidis in "I Makedonia mesa apo tis statistikes: i periptosi ton Slavofonon", Praktika IE' Panelliniou Istorikou Synedriou, Salonica 1995, p.418] 5. 3rd Army Corps, 1925: "about 250.000", of whom 35.000 are going to leave Greece, according the Neuilly Convention. [GDM Archives, f.89B, "Memorandum about the situation of foreign propagandas in the Army Corps area and North Greece, in general", p.3 & 10). 6.. Syllogos for Propagation of Greek Letters (SDEG), 1927: "around 200.000", of whom 80-90.000 "ex-Schismatic" and 100-120.000 ex-Patriarchist ; "Of this Bulgarian-speaking population, 30-35.000 live in Eastern Macedonia, around 60.000 in Central Macedonia and the rest 100.000 or more in Western Macedonia? (Venizelos Archives, f.373, SDEG Secretary P.Demetriades to the Prime Minister, Athens 23.12.1927, no.38]. 7. Syllogos for Propagation of Greek Letters (SDEG), 1932: "more than 200.000" [IAYE, f.1931-34/A21/V, P.Demetriades to Education Minister G.Papandreou, Athens 8.1.1932) 8. Syllogos for Propagation of Greek Letters (SDEG), 1935: "around 250.000" [IAYE, f.1935-39/A6/9a, P.Demetriades to Foreign Ministry, Athens 30.7.1935, no.1137/297]. 9.Syllogos for Propagation of Greek Letters (SDEG), 1936: "more than 200.000", of whom 40.000 in Eastern Macedonia, ~70.000 in Central Macedonia and "more than 100.000" in Western Macedonia [IAYE, f.1935-39/A6/9a, P.Demetriades to the Prime Minister & Army General Staff, 20.1.1936, Confidential]. There are much more ex-classified statistics about the Florina-Kastoria area, covering the years well until the mid-1960s. In 1965, foe example, the number of Slav-speaking Macedonians was estimated by the responsible Foreign Ministry (as well as local) officials to be circa 135-150.000 in the three prefectures of Florina, Kastoria & Pella. In Florina Prefecture, the Greek CIA (KYP) estimated at the same time the Slav-speaking "indigenous" (gigeneis) as 51.859 or 69,5% of the total prefecture's population [Kostopoulos 2000:223-4]. B. "Aristotelis", its assimilatory role and funding by the "mystika kondylia" 1. On 9.11.1960, a special conference of personnalities dealing with the planning of the assimilation programs for Greek Macedonia (Foreign Minister Averoff, Interior MInister Makris, Chief of the 1st Diplomatic Directorate of MFA Heimarios, Prefecture Inspector Karabotsos, Prefects of Florina, Kastoria & Ioannina, West Macednia Gendarmerie Chief Romanos) decided, among other things, the secret funding of "Aristotelis". As a first step, it was decided to give "Aristotelis" a modern Print Machine, worth (then) 500.000 drachmas. [Filippos Dragoumis Archives, Gennadeios Library (Athens), f.96, doc.205, K. Heimarios "Note on the West Macedonia Slav-speakers", Athens 21.6.1963]. 2. On 9.8.1959, the "Aristotelis" president Tyrpinos participated, according to the Greek press of those days, to the well-known event of state-organized collective public oath by the Slav-speaking Florina villagers of Atrapos (formerly Krapestina), that they will never again speak even one Slav word from the "much cursed local slavic idiom". Tyrpinos made a relevant speach to the villagers, while the "Artistotelis" band played "national popular music", in order to underline the whole (obviously assimilatory) procedure. [Newpapers "Ellinikos Vorras" & "Kathimerini", 11.8.1959]. According to a recent public statement by MFA Macedonian specialist Evangelos Kofos, the whole event was organized by the Greek CIA. 3. In 1966-67, "Aristotelis" received another 100.000 drs from "secret funds" of the so-called (and explicitly assimilatory) "Special Macedonian Programs", channeled through the "Political Affairs Service" of MFA installed inside the Prefecture. [Nomarhia Florinis, "Periliptikon Simeioma Eidikou Programmatos anaptyxeos akritikon periohon nomou Florinis, etous 1967", photocopy in my posession]. 4. During the junta years (1967-74), the propaganda "lectures" organized by "Aristotelis" are officially considered as part of the junta Prefecture's activities ["Ethnos" (Florina) 26.2.1972, p.2 ; for its contents, "Ethnos" (Fl) 4.3.1972 & 6.5.1972]. 5. On 16.2.1982, the then National Security Service (YPEA) proposed to the Greek Government the sponsoring of nationalist "Syllogoi" and their financing for propaganda purposes (lectures, publishing of books & magazines, etc), citing explicitly "Aristotelis" as the successful model for such a project. [YPEA, "Epivouli kata tis Makedonias" (=Macedonian Issue, according to the terminology established offivcially on 14.10.1969 [Kostopoulos 2000:261]), Athens 16.2.1982, no.6502/7-50428. This document was published -entire- for the first time in September 1989 by the Athens monthly magazine "Scholisastis" ; later on, parts of it were published also by the newspaper "Eleftheros Typos" (8.3.1992) and the author Stefanos Sotiriou in his book "Makedoniko", Athens 1991, p.132-3]. Last but not least: it is a little bit problematic to qualify "Aristotelis" as an "anti-Nazi" organization. Its most revendicated activity during Nazi occupation of Greece, was the reception (singing the Greek national anthem) of the Quisling Prime Minister Georgios Tsolakoglou, during his official visit to Florina (1942). A genuine nationalist action, undoubtedly -but a rather strange 'anti-Nazi" one, indeed! Greetings from Athens Tasos Kostopoulos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030114/d9226f3d/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Tue Jan 14 11:50:46 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece Message-ID: <102.23cb79ad.2b55c416@aol.com> In a message dated 1/14/03 11:07:11 Pacific Standard Time, AKarpathak@aol.com writes: > By denying this, I believe we are doing a dis-service to current Greece as > well as to the data at hand. George, you get my drift??? > > Anna K. > Denying it? Who is denying it? I am asking how come "just" certain and IF minorities, and not ALL from ALL over Greece IF do exist. That was my point. Regards to all.........L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030114/bc793dcc/attachment.html From gedeon at globalserve.net Tue Jan 14 12:09:28 2003 From: gedeon at globalserve.net (George Gedeon) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" References: <000601c2bad9$dfc69c00$16a3fed8@globalserve.net> <3E2327FD.2C8F5670@bryant.edu> Message-ID: <000301c2bc08$ef1842a0$6da1fed8@globalserve.net> Dear Glen: Thank you for appreciating our Greek heritage and for having the mind of a Greek. Unfortunately for you, it takes more than intellectual relativity to be a Greek. Many Greeks (not its present government) would expect you to be not only a descendent of Socrates, the Paleologoses and Kolokotronis, but also of John the Golden Mouthed. We are an ancient and proud people whose physical and cultural existence, as well as territorial security, were threatened many times, and still are... To get where we are today, we had to kill and be killed, defend our turf, and yes, invade others who threatened us. We also expelled those who did not "play ball" with our national aspirations, as they were expelling us from their own lands for the same reasons... On some occasions we even used the Law to encourage and even force non-Greek speakers to learn Greek at the expense of their mother tongues. Many of us also cheered on or looked the other way as foreign powers were doing our dirty work for us, often enough because we did not have the means or the heart to proceed with the shameful acts that required the cold and heartless efficiency of others. For better and for worse, these attempts eventually paid off, and today Greece is one of the most politically and ethnically united and peaceful nation in the region. As a result, our logic tells us that if a homogeneous Greece has guaranteed us almost 60 years of Peace, then why change the status quo...It is safer and more comfortable continuing with what has worked so far, than to change paths into an unknown future. After all, and not far away from Greece's borders, we have examples of minorities who took advantage of the nations they lived in with tragic results. No one in Greece, including Diaspora idealistic liberals like me, would wish to see this happen to Greece. So please be patient for our reluctance to accept "outsiders" as one of ours, or to feel comfortable and confidant enough to realise that one can be Greek and yet also be a Muslim, a Jew, a Catholic, a Jehovah Witness, or to claim a heritage other than the Hellenic one. As far as I am concerned, if you feel Greek, love Greece and have a Greek passport, then you ARE A GREEK. For the time being, I hope you will be satisfied with your "honorary" Greekness and the unlimited hospitality the people of Greece offer to well meaning guests and honorary compatriots like you. You will always be welcome in that much loved but tortured land that has so much to offer to those who appreciate its History, natural beauty and diverse, colourful but stubborn and suspicious peoples. Forgive them...for they have seen and suffered too much, as have their neighbours... GOD BLESS US ALL. ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen D. Camp To: George Gedeon Sent: January 13, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" > Wasn't it Socrates who observed, "eime den eine Athenais, eime den eine Ellin, > eime politis tu kosmu" (I am not an Athenian, I am not a Greek, I am a citizen > of the world"? > > In one sense, all of us are Greeks who love her culture and history--many of you > are fortunate enough to have been born and lived there--the rest of us like > myself (a New England Yankee) have to make do as "epitimos Ellin" or "honarary > Greeks"! ;-) > > Glen > From gedeon at globalserve.net Tue Jan 14 12:03:03 2003 From: gedeon at globalserve.net (George Gedeon) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" References: <000601c2bad9$dfc69c00$16a3fed8@globalserve.net> <3E2327FD.2C8F5670@bryant.edu> Message-ID: <000b01c2bc08$5ffef5a0$539dfed8@globalserve.net> Thank you for appreciating our Greek heritage and for having the mind of a Greek. Unfortunately for you, it takes more than intellectual relativity to be a Greek. Many Greeks (not its present government) would expect you to be not only a descendent of Socrates, the Paleologoses and Kolokotronis, but also of John the Golden Mouthed. We are an ancient and proud people whose physical and cultural existence, as well as territorial security, were threatened many times, and still are... To get where we are today, we had to kill and be killed, defend our turf, and yes, invade others who threatened us. We also expelled those who did not "play ball" with our national aspirations, as they were expelling us from their own lands for the same reasons... On some occasions we even used the Law to encourage and even force non-Greek speakers to learn Greek at the expense of their mother tongues. Many of us also cheered on or looked the other way as foreign powers were doing our dirty work for us, often enough because we did not have the means or the heart to proceed with the shameful act that required the cold and heartless efficiency of others. For better and for worse, these attempts eventually paid off, and today Greece is one of the most politically and ethnically united and peaceful nation in the region. As a result, our logic tells us that if a homogenious Greece has guaranteed us almost 60 years of Peace, then why change the status quo...It is safer and more comfortable continuing with what has worked so far, than to change paths into an unknown future. After all, and not far away from Greece's borders, we have examples of minorities who took advantage of the nations they lived in with tragic results. No one in Greece, including Diaspora idealistic liberals like me, would wish to see this happen to Greece. So please be patient for our reluctance to accept "outsiders" as one of ours, or to feel comfortable and confidant enough to realise that one can be Greek and yet also be a Muslim, a Jew, a Catholic, a Jehovah Witness, or to claim a heritage other than the Hellenic one. As far as I am concerned, if you feel Greek, love Greece and have a Greek passport, then you ARE A GREEK. For the time being, I hope you will be satisfied with your "honorary" Greekness and the unlimited hospitality the people of Greece offer to well meaning guests and honorary compatriots like you. You will always be welcome in that much loved but tortured land that has so much to offer to those who appreciate its History, natural beauty and diverse, colourful but stubborn and suspicious peoples. Forgive them...for they have seen and suffered too much, as have their neighbours... GOD BLESS US ALL. ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen D. Camp To: George Gedeon Sent: January 13, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" > Wasn't it Socrates who observed, "eime den eine Athenais, eime den eine Ellin, > eime politis tu kosmu" (I am not an Athenian, I am not a Greek, I am a citizen > of the world"? > > In one sense, all of us are Greeks who love her culture and history--many of you > are fortunate enough to have been born and lived there--the rest of us like > myself (a New England Yankee) have to make do as "epitimos Ellin" or "honarary > Greeks"! ;-) > > Glen > > George Gedeon wrote: > > > Dear John: > > > > Modern Greeks are not the same people as their forefathers 2,000 years ago. > > Paul of Tarsus, Rome, 1,000 years of Byzantium, 400 years of Ottoman rule > > and colonisation, modern nationalism, war, invasions and other painful > > Balkan experiences, have created a new Greek race and culture that has very > > little in common with Socrates and Aristotle. > > > > Just walk on any Greek street, ride on any taxi, sit and listen in any > > coffee shop or restaurant, try to cash $100 of American Express cheques in a > > bank, read Eleftherotypia, Rizospastis, Apoyevmatini, Orthodoxos Typos, A1 > > and Stohos, watch ANY TV talk-show and observe national and local > > politicians during elections and you will realise that the modern Grekoi are > > a lot more interesting, colourful, diverse and a pain in the neck than their > > ancestors when it comes to allowing outsiders (xenoi) into our club. > > > > A few years ago two profound examples of our reluctance to offer the > > distinct and precious privilege of Greekness to others was all over the > > news: > > > > 1) A top student who happened to be Albanian Muslim was to be allowed, as is > > the custom in Greece, to carry the Greek flag at the head of his class > > during a Greek national holiday. When the Greek Christian parents heard that > > a non-Greek was going to carry the sacred flag, they protested so loudly, > > the boy withdrew his honorary service from the parade. Eventually the > > President of Greece (if I am not mistaken) apologised to the boy and made it > > clear that any newcomer to Greece who wishes to show his love for this > > country should never be discouraged or condemned for trying and that Greeks > > should be honoured and proud that new immigrants would want to carry the > > flag. > > > > 2) Not too far into the future, another Albanian boy won the Epiphany diving > > contest by finding the Cross at the bottom of the sea. He too was scolded > > for participating in the annual Christian tradition! > > > > Ask any Greek if he thinks that Greek Muslims, Jews or Romas (Gypsies), are > > "really" Greek, and don't be surprised by the answers you will get. > > > > GOD BLESS US ALL. > > > > George Gedeon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John Nordin > > To: > > Sent: January 12, 2003 10:41 PM > > Subject: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" > > > > > In the spirit of the new beginning to the list, let me pose a question > > about > > > ethnic identity. > > > > > > Stepping back from the use of blood lines, or specific cultural influences > > > as markers for that, let me ask to what extent identity in Greece today is > > > formed by adoption of certain ideals? > > > > > > What I mean is this. 40 years ago in the US there was a theory (if not > > > always a practice) that "being American" was not about DNA but about > > > believing in the ideals of America, the "American Dream," and so on. Now > > we > > > all know that certain groups weren't allowed to participate in this and > > that > > > there has always been a "nativist" strand attacking this idea, but, the > > idea > > > was there. You could be German and American, or French and American or > > > Greek and American and you could have two ideates at the same time. > > > > > > Over the last 40 years, the US has turned away from that idea. > > > > > > To what extent has there ever been, or is now, in Greece the same idea: > > the > > > being Greek is not about blood but about belief in democracy, economic > > > opportunity or identifying yourself with the classical ideal, and so on? > > > > > > Again, I'm not suggesting that the US is some model to emulate. But I > > think > > > the idea is a powerful one for resolving these conflicts and -- since to > > > some extent the US would think it got these ideas from ancient Greece, to > > > what extent is the idea alive in modern Greece? > > > > > > I don't know if George B. remembers a book conference in New York some > > years > > > ago (we met and had lunch then) where a speaker talked about how you "did > > > not have to be Greek in order to be Greek." That anyone could claim the > > > ancient Greeks as their ancestors by believing in the same ideals they > > > (sometimes) implemented. Not everyone agreed as I recall. > > > > > > John Nordin > > > www.jpnordin.com > > > www.theplaka.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > > From demotika at earthlink.net Tue Jan 14 14:56:28 2003 From: demotika at earthlink.net (Joan Friedberg) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] The definition of "Greekness" Message-ID: A Greek friend of mine put it this way: "It is not what the ancestry is but only WHAT IS IN YOUR HEART, SOUL, MIND AND SPEECH!" On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:03:03 -0500 George Gedeon wrote: > > As far as I am concerned, if you feel Greek, > love Greece and have a Greek > passport, then you ARE A GREEK. - Joan Friedberg ........................................................................................................................................................................................................... Kypseli Greek Dance Center: http://kypseli.org ................................ Demotika Productions: http://home.earthlink.net/~demotika From Roland at prev.org Tue Jan 14 17:37:46 2003 From: Roland at prev.org (Roland Moore) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Aristides Baltas Conference at NYU Message-ID: From: Kekos Androniki [mailto:niki.kekos@nyu.edu] The A.S. Onassis Program in Hellenic Studies and the Philosophy Department at New York University and the National Technical University of Athens cordially invite you to a conference in honor of Greek philosopher and University professor ARISTIDES BALTAS (Recipient of Greece's 2002 National Book Award in Nonfiction) Saturday February 15th, 2003 Jurow Lecture Hall, Silver Center, NYU PHILOSOPHY AS POLITICS Speakers will include: James Conant (University of Chicago) George Fourtounis (University of Thessaloniki) Stathis Gourgouris (Columbia University) Peter Machamer (University of Pittsburgh) Alexander Nehamas (Princeton University) Bruce Robbins (Columbia University) For further information please call (212) 998-3990 or email Niki Kekos at niki.kekos@nyu.edu. Niki Kekos A.S. Onassis Program in Hellenic Studies 726 Broadway, 6th Floor New York, NY 10003 Tel: (212) 998-3990 Fax: (212) 998-3985 From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Tue Jan 14 19:35:58 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Forwarded information, conference on Minorities in Greece References: <15F4893D.53E51A1A.09E588BC@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E24D71D.3CF4F874@hermesnetwork.com> AKarpathak@aol.com wrote: > To quote one 15 year old boy, "I was born here but I don't belong here. There is nothing for me here. I want to go to America. And you ask me if I am Greek? That question is meaningless for me and it angers me. If I stay here I will go to the army. But I can't even get a job to help my mother support us. See this restaurant owner? You're giving him your money, your American dollars. You know what he said to me? 'Fige apo do re. Siga pou tha doso doulia se Arvaniti.'" T! > his was in Chalkidiki, the summer of 1991. Well, that's an interesting tale, but it's over 12 years old and it is really a rather isolated case (i.e. one particular restauranteur). Now, I have another tale for you. In 1996, I managed a bar/restaurant on the island of Kos, in a little seaside village called Mastichari. My 16 year old gopher/busboy -who was hired to work under me by my boss who was a Kalymniote Greek- was a 16 year old "Greek" Albanian (so he claimed). His name was Andrea. When he first came under my wing, he had one change of clothing, no money, and he had never worked in a restaurant before. By the time the summer season was over, he was a full-fledged waiter! [Not to mention one of the hardest working kids I've ever had the pleasure to supervise.] Well, when we were closing up for the winter, he was able to find another job in Hora at an Italian food restaurant (Greek-owned again) that was open year round on the island. In my many trips to Greece, I have run across dozens of similar scenarios and heard about many more. What conclusions can one draw from my own "unofficial" research? Sincerely, Sotiris Sotropoulos http://hermesnetwork.com From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Tue Jan 14 22:43:50 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> A couple of years ago I translated the Olympic Hymn by Costis Palamas. I thought the translation was rather good, even had some compliments. So, I sent the Athens Olympics Organizing Committee a copy. I did not hear back from them. Then, I contacted the IOC, by roundabout means (their web site technical administrators) and the IOC did respond. A Marienne Chappuis from their Legal Department told me that the IOC was not currently in need of an updated translation of the Olympic Hymn. When I questioned her on what criteria the decision had been based, she repeated herself and didn't provide me with any details. Now, I think I have really caught something in my translation. I suppose this is the best forum for this topic that I can think of, so here goes. My translation can be found online at: http://fp.gnosis.f9.co.uk/olympics/ (scroll to just before the bottom of that page or simply click on the anchor link to the Official Olympic Anthem (Greek & English) The person who posted it on that page is completely unknown to me, I've never met them. They borrowed the translation (with my permission) from a web page I once maintained (but have since taken down for some unknown reason even to myself). I would like the opinion of the learned members of this list on the quality/poesy/success of my translation. Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030115/07273d3e/attachment.html From sarant at lu.coditel.net Tue Jan 14 23:08:59 2003 From: sarant at lu.coditel.net (Nikos Sarantakos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia In-Reply-To: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030115080629.01746028@pop3.coditel.net> Just one of question of marginal importance. On: > 3. General Colonisation Directorate of Macedonia, I wonder what is the Greek name of the Directorate Thanks Nikos Sarantakos From stavr001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu Wed Jan 15 01:09:10 2003 From: stavr001 at maroon.tc.umn.edu (Theo Stavrou) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <3E252536.A89F0599@tc.umn.edu> Dear colleague: I do not know why the Athens Organizing Committee reacted the way they did to your suggestion that they consider your translation of Palamas's "Olympic Hymn", but I did read it and found it quite enjoyable. Several years ago, when we celebrated Palamas at the Annual Celebration of Greek Letters at the University of Minnesota, I and my brother Soterios Stavrou attempted a translation of the same poem. If you wish to take a look at it, you may find it in a volume called Kostis Palamas: A Portrait and An Appreciation. edited by Theofanis G. Stavrou and Constantine A. Trypanis (Minneapolis: Nostos, 1985). Yours could very well be a superior translation but I thought you might want to know fo teh existence of this other translation. Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote: > > A couple of years ago I translated the Olympic Hymn by Costis > Palamas. I thought the translation was rather good, even had some > compliments. So, I sent the Athens Olympics Organizing Committee a > copy. I did not hear back from them. Then, I contacted the IOC, by > roundabout means (their web site technical administrators) and the IOC > did respond. A Marienne Chappuis from their Legal Department told me > that the IOC was not currently in need of an updated translation of > the Olympic Hymn. When I questioned her on what criteria the decision > had been based, she repeated herself and didn't provide me with any > details. Now, I think I have really caught something in my > translation. I suppose this is the best forum for this topic that I > can think of, so here goes. My translation can be found online at: > http://fp.gnosis.f9.co.uk/olympics/ (scroll to just before the bottom > of that page or simply click on the anchor link to the Official > Olympic Anthem (Greek & English) The person who posted it on that > page is completely unknown to me, I've never met them. They borrowed > the translation (with my permission) from a web page I once maintained > (but have since taken down for some unknown reason even to myself). > > I would like the opinion of the learned members of this list on the > quality/poesy/success of my translation. > > Sotiris Sotiropoulos > Hermes Network Inc. > Toronto, Canada > 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST > http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services From tkostop at enet.gr Wed Jan 15 03:19:40 2003 From: tkostop at enet.gr (Tasos Kostopulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030115080629.01746028@pop3.coditel.net> Message-ID: <004a01c2bc87$ffeaf3f0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Geniki Diefthynsis Epoikismou Makedonias ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nikos Sarantakos" To: "Tasos Kostopulos" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia > > Just one of question of marginal importance. On: > > > 3. General Colonisation Directorate of Macedonia, > > I wonder what is the Greek name of the Directorate > > > Thanks > Nikos Sarantakos > From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Wed Jan 15 09:16:51 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn In-Reply-To: <3E252536.A89F0599@tc.umn.edu> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030115120138.00b367f0@mail.hermesnetwork.com> At 03:09 AM 1/15/2003 -0600, Theo Stavrou wrote: >Dear colleague: > >I do not know why the Athens Organizing Committee reacted the way they >did to your suggestion that they consider your translation of Palamas's >"Olympic Hymn", but I did read it and found it quite enjoyable. Several >years ago, when we celebrated Palamas at the Annual Celebration of Greek >Letters at the University of Minnesota, I and my brother Soterios >Stavrou attempted a translation of the same poem. If you wish to take a >look at it, you may find it in a volume called Kostis Palamas: A >Portrait and An Appreciation. edited by Theofanis G. Stavrou and >Constantine A. Trypanis (Minneapolis: Nostos, 1985). Yours could very >well be a superior translation but I thought you might want to know fo >teh existence of this other translation. Theo, Thanks for your response. I am glad you enjoyed the translation. I am interested in looking up your own version, and I will check for the book you cite on my next trip to the Reference Library here in Toronto. (unless you care to send us all a copy online? or just myself, offlist?) BTW, I am not currently involved in any academic program (Modern Greek Studies or otherwise). I am an autodidact when it comes to translation from Greek to English. I just love doing it and I have a knack for the work. I do it in my spare time. Among other things, I have also translated a modern Greek play entitled "The Trial of Socrates" by Giorgos Skourtis [http://www.eeths.gr/bios/skou-e.html], along with another one of his novels. Giorgos (whom I have never met personally) and I are now looking to have the play produced/published in English, so if anyone has any ideas please feel free to let either of us know. Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services From shoffman at rmi.net Wed Jan 15 09:32:19 2003 From: shoffman at rmi.net (Susanna Hoffman) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] cooking burner Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Here again is the non-academic, non political question of the week - having nothing to do with minorities, though probably Greekness. Sorry, it's not my usual thing, but I need the information for a note in a book. Here goes: In the villages women often cook a single dish (fried potatoes, a soup) or make coffee over a single flame/burner device that sits over a small bottle of gas. In the old days, before many had indoor stoves with ovens, almost all frying and simmering sort of cooking was done over one or two of these things (though some women had as well a "petrogazi" -- a sort of two burner enameled stovetop that had a tube to a large gas bottle). I cannot for the life of me remember what the single burner device is called, though they are still in use, especially for making coffee. My memory says something like "brizi" but of course no such appears in a dictionary. Does some cook or coffee maker, of either gender, know? Thanks, Susanna p.s. The massive book, which is just back from editing, is called The Olive and the Caper. It's a lively history of Greek food from the arrive of the first people in the land, not just first Greeks, and yes, with recipes both ancient and modern, and is due out in Sept. from Workman Press. From afilindra at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 15 09:43:09 2003 From: afilindra at YAHOO.COM (Alexandra Filindra) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] cooking burner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030115174309.69267.qmail@web41405.mail.yahoo.com> Gkazaki? --- Susanna Hoffman wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > Here again is the non-academic, non political > question of the week - having > nothing to do with minorities, though probably > Greekness. Sorry, it's not my > usual thing, but I need the information for a note > in a book. Here goes: > In the villages women often cook a single dish > (fried potatoes, a soup) or > make coffee over a single flame/burner device that > sits over a small bottle > of gas. In the old days, before many had indoor > stoves with ovens, almost > all frying and simmering sort of cooking was done > over one or two of these > things (though some women had as well a "petrogazi" > -- a sort of two burner > enameled stovetop that had a tube to a large gas > bottle). I cannot for the > life of me remember what the single burner device is > called, though they are > still in use, especially for making coffee. My > memory says something like > "brizi" but of course no such appears in a > dictionary. Does some cook or > coffee maker, of either gender, know? > Thanks, > Susanna > p.s. The massive book, which is just back from > editing, is called The Olive > and the Caper. It's a lively history of Greek food > from the arrive of the > first people in the land, not just first Greeks, and > yes, with recipes both > ancient and modern, and is due out in Sept. from > Workman Press. > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l ===== "If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?" Albert Einstein Alexandra Filindra Department of Political Science Rutgers University email: afilindra@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From LYNGOS at aol.com Wed Jan 15 09:50:54 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:01 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] cooking burner Message-ID: <23.2a7b30cb.2b56f97e@aol.com> In a message dated 1/15/03 09:36:55 Pacific Standard Time, shoffman@rmi.net writes: > ). I cannot for the > life of me remember what the single burner device is called, though they are > still in use, especially for making coffee. My memory says something like > "brizi" but of course no such appears in a dictionary. Does some cook or > coffee maker, of either gender, know? > Thanks, > Susanna > Kaminetto, from the Italian word "camino:=chimney, fireplace, burning place, flamming place, etc.etc.etc. Regards to all..............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030115/c03d1032/attachment.html From george.syrimis at yale.edu Wed Jan 15 12:37:05 2003 From: george.syrimis at yale.edu (George Syrimis) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Balkan Cinema conference Message-ID: The following conference is organized by the Film Studies Program at Yale University and co-sponsored by the Hellenic Studies Program. The conference program includes three Greek films: Thursday, February 6 7:30pm, Balkanisateur (Valkanisateur), by Goritsas, 1997 Friday, February 7 7:00pm, The Four Seasons of the Law (I earini synaxis ton agrofylakon), by Avdeliodis, 1999 Sunday, February 9 12:00 noon, It's a Long Road (Ola ine dromos), by Voulgaris, 1998 2:00pm, The Four Seasons of the Law (I earini synaxis ton agrofylakon), by Avdeliodis, 1999 For more information please visit the following site: http://www.yale.edu/filmstudiesprogram/Balkan%20intro.html Land, Everyone's Image: Cinema in the Balkans February 6- 9, 2003 Yale University Whitney Humanities Center, 53 Wall Street New Haven, Connecticut Free and open to the public Thursday, February 6 4:00pm: Balkan Cinema and the Geopolitical Imaginary - Fredric Jameson 6:00pm: Film: Who's That Singing Over There (Ko to tamo peva), ??ijan, 1980, VHS 7:30pm: Film: Balkanisateur (Valkanisateur), Goritsas, 1997, 35mm Friday, February 7 9:00am: Space, Territory, Geopolitics - Katie Trumpener, Nevena ??akovi??, Herb Eagle 11:15am: Film: Who Wants to Be a President (Novo, novo, vrijeme), Grli?? & Mirkovi??, 2001, VHS 1:30pm: Registers of Emotion: Comedy, Music, Allegory - Andrew Horton, George Syrimis, Maria Stassinopoulou 3:30pm: Film: Before the Rain (Pred dozhdot), 1994, 35mm with Director Milcho Manchevski 7pm: Film: The Four Seasons of the Law (I earini synaxis ton agrofylakon), Avdeliodis, 1999, 35mm Saturday, February 8 9:30am: Once There Was a Country: Kusturica - Paul Coates, Goran Goci??, Vassiliki Tsitsopoulou 1:00pm: Cultural Memory/Identity - Thomas Elsaesser, Slobodan Novak, Sasa Mili?? 3:00pm: Film: Serbia, Anno Zero, Markovi??, 2001, VHS 4:30pm: Whose Cinema? Who's Writing its History? - Nata??a ??urovi??ov??, Daniel Goulding, Dina Iordanova 7:00pm: Film: No Man's Land (Ni??iji zemlja), Tanovi??, 2001, 35mm 9:00pm: Film: In the Jaws of Life (U raljama ??ivota), Grli??, 1984, 35mm Sunday, February 9 8:30am: Film: I Even Met Some Happy Gypsies (Skuplja??i perja), Petrovi??, 1967, VHS 10am: Looking at 'Them', Defining Ourselves - Evelyn Preuss, Dudley Andrew, Dina Iordanova 12noon: Film: It's a Long Road (Ola ine dromos), Voulgaris, 1998, 35mm 2:00pm: Film: The Four Seasons of the Law (I earini synaxis ton agrofylakon), Avdeliodis, 1999, 35mm Sponsors: European Studies Council, Hellenic Studies, Film Studies and the Whitney Humanities Center -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030115/008b48ce/attachment.html From ioniccentre at hol.gr Wed Jan 15 12:41:42 2003 From: ioniccentre at hol.gr (Isidoros) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Nikiforos Diamandouros elected EU Ombudsman Message-ID: MGSA administration and members will be very pleased to know that Nikiforos Diamandouros, one of the Association's past president's, was elected today by the European Parliament to serve as EU's Ombudsman. Though the Greek Presidency may have played a (discreet) role in this, full credit -- and congratulations! -- goes to Nikiforos -- a sensitive, fair, knowledgeable and dynamic humanist scholar -- and a friend to many on this list. Personally, I consider myself fortunate to have served with him at the Board of Directors of The Ionic Centre for six years, and until his assuming the Greek Ombudsman office -- which he organized and served -- serves, till April, when he assumes his European post -- with energy, dedication and an extraordinary sense of sensitivity and mission for the place, and plight, of the common person in Greece. Congratulations, all around, I think, are in order! Isidoros, Athens From JUNESAM at aol.com Wed Jan 15 13:19:07 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Harry Potter in Greece Message-ID: <12e.205f442a.2b572a4b@aol.com> Oh, Lord ! Can't religious leaders and churches address some of the REAL real issues in society instead of foaming at the mouth about fictions ??? June S ----------------------------- [01] HARRY POTTER EVIL ACCORDING TO DIDYMOTICHO METROPOLIS MPA- An announcement attacking the popular books and films of children's hero Harry Potter was issued by the Didymoticho Metropolis. Adopting views expressed by various educational circles worldwide, the Didymoticho Metropolis is likening Joan Rowling's creations of her moving children to evil, magic, occultism and demonology. From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Wed Jan 15 14:54:16 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Harry Potter in Greece In-Reply-To: <12e.205f442a.2b572a4b@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030115173217.00b7d558@mail.hermesnetwork.com> At 04:19 PM 1/15/2003 -0500, JUNESAM@aol.com wrote: >Oh, Lord ! > >Can't religious leaders and churches address some of the REAL >real issues in society instead of foaming at the mouth about fictions ??? Excuse me, I don't want you to misconstrue my curiosity in any way, but I'd like to ask you a couple questions about your sentiments above. Is it that you are incredulous or simply surprised that some people are of the opinion that what their children read is a REAL real issue. Do you have some kind of a problem with that? If so, what? is it because it's the Church specifically? Are you in any way implying that the Church and religious leaders of Greece ought not to have any right to publicly express their opinions on whatever they deem worthy of their attention? Furthermore, why do you feel the need to bring this particular piece of ephemera to the list's attention, and not something else a little more relevant? Last I checked, Harry Potter was not Greek, although I am aware, that a reference to a Greek who sold the three-headed dog (Cerberus) to Hagrid was changed to an Irishman in the first movie. Again, please do not misconstrue my questions. I am just trying to understand what motivated your original message. >June S >----------------------------- >[01] HARRY POTTER EVIL ACCORDING TO DIDYMOTICHO METROPOLIS > >MPA- An announcement attacking the popular books and films of children's >hero Harry Potter was issued by the Didymoticho Metropolis. Adopting views >expressed by various educational circles worldwide, the Didymoticho >Metropolis is likening Joan Rowling's creations of her moving children to >evil, magic, occultism and demonology. >_______________________________________________ >List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Wed Jan 15 15:12:18 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] NYXTES STHN ARKADIA author? Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030115181008.00b7fd98@mail.hermesnetwork.com> I am wondering if anyone might know who the author of the Greek book "NYXTES STHN ARKADIA" is? I have read it in the past, but cannot now recall the author's name. Thanks In Advance, Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services From LYNGOS at aol.com Wed Jan 15 07:14:33 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <1a2.f2a4807.2b56d4d9@aol.com> Mr. Kostopoulos wrote: >Here are the sources I reffered to, concerning (a) the number of Slav-speaking Macedonias of Northern Greece during the >Inter-War years, and (b) the financing of "Aristotelis" by the infamous "secret funds" [mystika kondylia] during?the Cold >War years. There are posted here not as a reply to "Lyngos" (whose style and arguments I personnaly judge far from >serious, anyway) but for anybody among the List members that could be interested about such things.> Dear Mr. Kostopoulos Our conversation is about 200,000 Slav-speaking MACEDONIANS as you put it, not about 200-250 maybe even 500,000 SLAVOBULGAR-speaking populations. Now in the spirit of debating you, I will accept that indeed BEFORE the exchange of the populations, there were 100-150,000 BULGARIAN speaking population, as well as some other populations, GREKOMAN populations, speaking an IDIOM of such BULGARIAN language. Do you have any numbers for Slav-speaking MACEDONIANS Mr. Kostopoulos? Unless of course you wish to make Macedonians out of those BULGARS included in the Neuilly Convention most of whom they left Greece for Bulgaria, and our GREKOMANS speaking the well known idiom of the Prespa area. Do you wish to identify THESE people as.........Macedonians Mr. Kostopoulos? The truth is that back in the times of the Neuilly Convention, there were NO Macedonians of any kind, same as they were not during the early 1900s including the Ilin-Den times, as well as the times BEFORE 1900. The closer to be found Macedonians, are those of the last Macedonian dynasties before the arrival of the Romans back in about 150 B.C. mind the Eastern Thracians, Thessalians, even Paulicians from Asia Minor, all of them be known one time or another as "Macedonians" Yes, or not? Of course we do have a renaming of part of those BULGARIANS as such, BULGARIAN populations living in the Balkans and especially in what was called Vardaska Banovina first, Popular Republic of Macedonia later and actually these days F.Y.R.O.M. Are these the people that you wish to name them as .......Macedonians Mr. Kostopoulos? Or are these people PLUS those Grekomans, meaning people with clear Hellenic conscience, people that for the last 200-300 were more or less forced to adopt the Bulgarian language? But those people, both, Bulgars and Grekomans, hardly belong to any kind of Macedonian ETHNIC conscience, let alone language and Church. So, I am reprinting what you said, and since all of your evidences brought here by you to justify the existence of 200-250,000 Slav-MACEDONIANS are just evidences of populations speaking a Slav-idiom and/or the Bulgarian language, are not acceptable. Let me know when you'll bring your real evidences, I am going to "snip" your so-called "evidences and I'll procede to the "Aristotelis" affair.By the way here is your original statement: > "In the end, however, both countries resorted to violence in order to get > rid of their respective minorities (although this was not achieved > completely -in the casa Greece of Greece, the "remnants" were some 200,000 > Slav-speaking Macedonians, according to classified reports of the Inter-War > years, 80-90,000 of whom were ex-adherents of the Bulgarian Exarchate). > >A. Slav-speaking Macedonians?during the Inter-War years > No Macedonians Mr. Kostopoulos, Macedonians nothing. Slav-speaking BULGARS and Slav-idiom speaking Grekomans. ?? ? >There are much more?ex-classified statistics about the Florina-Kastoria area, covering the years well?until the mid-1960s.? In 1965, foe example, the number of Slav-speaking Macedonians was estimated by the responsible Foreign Ministry (as well as local) officials to be?circa 135-150.000 in the three prefectures of Florina, Kastoria & Pella. In Florina Prefecture, the Greek CIA (KYP) estimated at the same time the Slav-speaking?"indigenous" (gigeneis) as 51.859 or 69,5% of the total prefecture's population [Kostopoulos 2000:223-4].> As yourself proved to this group Mr. Kostopoulos, Slav-speaking populations are not the same as Slav-speaking Macedonians. Such definition was invented in the kitchen of the capital of F.Y.R.O.M. Skopia for internal consuption. ? ? B. "Aristotelis", its assimilatory role and?funding?by the "mystika kondylia"> O.K. lets take a look of this one here. ? >1. On 9.11.1960, a special conference of personnalities dealing with the planning of the assimilation programs for Greek Macedonia (Foreign Minister Averoff, Interior MInister Makris, Chief of the 1st Diplomatic Directorate of MFA Heimarios, Prefecture Inspector Karabotsos, Prefects of Florina, Kastoria & Ioannina, West Macednia?Gendarmerie Chief Romanos) decided, among other things,?the secret funding of "Aristotelis". As a first step, it was decided to?give "Aristotelis"?a modern Print Machine, worth (then) 500.000 drachmas. [Filippos Dragoumis Archives, Gennadeios Library (Athens), f.96, doc.205, K. Heimarios "Note on the West Macedonia Slav-speakers", Athens 21.6.1963].> Who says that donation of a printing macchine is an assimilatory practice? You? Where are such assimilatory practices? What did "Aristotelis" in order to have its actions defined as assimilatory? Printing with that macchine its own magazine? Does such magazine contains any kind of assimilatory propaganda? Against WHOM? What are the ACTIONS by "Aristotelis" that according to you: "which?the various assimilatory mechanisms (such as Florina's "Aristotelis"), well-fed by the?infamous "secret funds" [mystika kondylia] all-over the Cold War years, advanced in order to destroy what they called "the cursed slavic idiom" of Northern Greece."? What did "Aristotelis" for the DESTRUCTION of the "cursed slavic idiom" of Northern Greece? Received a printing macchine? (By the way I see that indeed you call things by their real names and not as.........Macedonians). ? >2. On 9.8.1959, the "Aristotelis" president Tyrpinos participated, according to the Greek press of those days, to the well-known event of state-organized collective public oath?by the Slav-speaking Florina villagers of Atrapos (formerly Krapestina), that they will never again speak even one Slav word from the "much cursed local slavic idiom". Tyrpinos?made a relevant speach to the villagers, while the "Artistotelis" band played "national popular music", in order to underline the whole (obviously assimilatory) procedure.? [Newpapers "Ellinikos Vorras"?& "Kathimerini", 11.8.1959]. According to a recent public statement by MFA Macedonian specialist Evangelos Kofos, the whole event was organized by the Greek CIA.> Big Deal! One of the past presidents of Aristotelis goes with the band and listens to the choir in ONE isolated instance of oath-giving for the destruction of that "slavic idiom" back in the days of the Cold War! Is this how "Aristotelis" was involved in the destruction of the Slav-idiom? What about the fact that most of the dancers, in its dancing division, were speaking ONLY the Slav-idiom? How could they be part of "Aristotelis" speaking such "cursed language"? ? >3.??In 1966-67, ?"Aristotelis" received another 100.000 drs from "secret funds" of the so-called (and explicitly assimilatory) "Special Macedonian Programs", channeled through the "Political Affairs Service" of MFA installed inside the Prefecture. [Nomarhia Florinis, "Periliptikon Simeioma Eidikou Programmatos anaptyxeos akritikon periohon nomou Florinis, etous 1967", photocopy in my posession].> Lets say that indeed such programs were existing, for the DEVELOPEMENT, as the proper word is, of counties in the Hellenic border. Can you explain to us, where such developement is associated with ASSIMILATION? And if "Aristotelis" received a financing of 100,000 as contribution to his programms, can you bring in here such programms by "Aristotelis" aiming in such assimilation? ? >4. During the junta years (1967-74), the propaganda "lectures" organized by "Aristotelis" are officially considered as part of the junta Prefecture's activities ["Ethnos" (Florina) 26.2.1972, p.2 ; for its contents, "Ethnos" (Fl) 4.3.1972 & 6.5.1972].> So? Freedom of expression. Where are such lectures so we can verify if indeed have or make reference to forced assimilation? Is the fact that someone from "Aristotelis" was giving a speech which was considered part of the Prefecture's activities an indication of "Aristotelis" involvement in assimilations? ? >5. On 16.2.1982, the then National Security Service (YPEA) proposed to the Greek Government the sponsoring of nationalist "Syllogoi" and their financing for propaganda purposes (lectures, publishing of books & magazines, etc), citing explicitly "Aristotelis" as the successful model for such a project. [YPEA, "Epivouli kata tis Makedonias" (=Macedonian Issue, according to the terminology established offivcially on 14.10.1969 [Kostopoulos 2000:261]), Athens 16.2.1982, no.6502/7-50428. This document was published -entire- for the first time in September 1989?by the Athens monthly?magazine "Scholisastis" ; later on, parts of it were published also by the newspaper "Eleftheros Typos" (8.3.1992) and the author Stefanos Sotiriou in his book "Makedoniko", Athens 1991, p.132-3].> Precisely! "Aristotelis" was indeed an Organization aiming in the PRESERVATION OF HELLENISM in Florina. But, "Slav-speaking" populations were ALL the GREKOMANS in Florina and the Florina County, were they assimilated? How? Linguistically? Ethnically? Religiously? Were the lectures, publishing of books, magazines, etc.etc. an attempt to assimilate them? bring to us in here the contents of such lectures, books, magazines. ? >Last but not least: it is a little bit problematic to qualify "Aristotelis" as an "anti-Nazi" organization. Its most revendicated activity during Nazi occupation of Greece, was the reception (singing the Greek national anthem) of the Quisling Prime Minister Georgios Tsolakoglou, during his official visit to Florina (1942). A genuine nationalist action, undoubtedly -but?a rather strange 'anti-Nazi" one, indeed!> You like to take out of context my writings I see. I clearly indicated that "Aristotelis" fought against the triple occupation of Florina. Against the NAZIs, against the FASCISTs and..............against the BULGARS. From, "Aristotelis"'s magazine, number 151, January-February 1982, and from a speech by my defunct father with title " "Aristotelis, 1941-1981 Forty Years Offerings to the History of Florina", page 17, translation mine, capital letters mine too: "Then on May the 9th 1942 arrives the Greek Prime Minister, in a critical moment, when the ANNEXATION of Florina to BULGARIA was considered as impending; he comes to encourage and strengthen the resistance of the population, and he is met by an extremely fanatical and extremely ready to fight sea of people ; he visits "Aristotelis"and attends a festive ethnic celebration and a nationalistic delirium for two hours; himself is encouraged, and when in the end of the manifestation he listens to the National Anthem sang by the little boys and little girls of the famous by then "Childrens' Choir", directed by the invalid hero of the Albanian front, and officer in the reserves, he can not keep anymore his abundant tears; leaving, from the balkony of the Prefecture, proceeds with extremely harsh statements against the BULGARIANS, and because of his statements he is forced to return to Athens by the Occupation Authorities immediately". As you can see Mr. Kostopoulos, and as yourself pointed out, the children and the people of Florina had the GUTS to sing the Hellenic National Anthem in the middle of a town occupied by Germans, Italians and BULGARS, when such an action those days ment DEATH. Per se it was an act of HEROISM against the Occoupiers, against the ones dreaming of ANNEXING our town to BULGARIA. Do not challenge "Aristotelis" Mr. Kostopoulos, its History is synonymous with that of HELLAS. Oh.........one more thing with regards your statement: "There are posted here not as a reply to "Lyngos" (whose style and arguments I personnaly judge far from >serious, anyway) but for anybody among the List members that could be interested about such things.>" Let the members of this list judge my seriousness, arguments and my style. Have a nice day and search for your "Makedonians". ? ? Greetings from Athens> Greetings from California ? Tasos Kostopoulos> George Sofoklis Tsapanos. Regards to all.....................L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic Peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030115/68554a27/attachment.html From JUNESAM at aol.com Wed Jan 15 18:57:02 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Harry Potter in Greece Message-ID: <1a6.f19a177.2b57797e@aol.com> I was surprised to see this happening in Greece, even though I know the books are as popular there as everwhere else. I had seen that a number of fundamentalist groups in the USA had so far forgotten their Theology as to consider some examples of popular juvenile fiction as being some kind of threat to Faith and Christianity. However I had supposed that the essential foundations of the Greek Orthodox Church might by now be sufficiently strong as to obviate the need to respond to such infantile silliness as these slight children's stories. Overeacting in this way merely serves to add weight and importance to a temporary phenomenon that most children will soon grow out of. Later they will probably regard these entertainments of their youth with a touch of mild nostalgia -the way that someone of an earlier generation might wear a Mickey Mouse Watch to regain their lost memories of childhood fun. It would seem to me to be a pretty fragile faith that can't survive the petty challenge of some children's fables (which, by the way - like the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy -are in effect rather simplistic parables of the triumph of good over evil) Might I suggest the Bishops could better spend their time promoting their faith and supporting the needy (as Christ instructed them to do in HIS parables) instead of worrying about childish fictions. June Samaras --------------- > > > >Can't religious leaders and churches address some of the REAL > >real issues in society instead of foaming at the mouth about fictions ??? > > Excuse me, I don't want you to misconstrue my curiosity in any way, but I'd > like to ask you a couple questions about your sentiments above. > > Is it that you are incredulous or simply surprised that some people are of > the opinion that what their children read is a REAL real issue. Do you > have some kind of a problem with that? If so, what? is it because it's the > Church specifically? Are you in any way implying that the Church and > religious leaders of Greece ought not to have any right to publicly express > their opinions on whatever they deem worthy of their > attention? Furthermore, why do you feel the need to bring this particular > piece of ephemera to the list's attention, and not something else a little > more relevant? Last I checked, Harry Potter was not Greek, although I am > aware, that a reference to a Greek who sold the three-headed dog (Cerberus) > to Hagrid was changed to an Irishman in the first movie. > > Again, please do not misconstrue my questions. I am just trying to > understand what motivated your original message. > > From LYNGOS at aol.com Wed Jan 15 19:00:29 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <14e.1a4829fa.2b577a4d@aol.com> Mr. Kostopoulos wrote: >Here are the sources I reffered to, concerning (a) the number of Slav-speaking Macedonias of Northern Greece during the >Inter-War years, and (b) the financing of "Aristotelis" by the infamous "secret funds" [mystika kondylia] during?the Cold >War years. There are posted here not as a reply to "Lyngos" (whose style and arguments I personnaly judge far from >serious, anyway) but for anybody among the List members that could be interested about such things.> Dear Mr. Kostopoulos Our conversation is about 200,000 Slav-speaking MACEDONIANS as you put it, not about 200-250 maybe even 500,000 SLAVOBULGAR-speaking populations. Now in the spirit of debating you, I will accept that indeed BEFORE the exchange of the populations, there were 100-150,000 BULGARIAN speaking population, as well as some other populations, GREKOMAN populations, speaking an IDIOM of such BULGARIAN language. Do you have any numbers for Slav-speaking MACEDONIANS Mr. Kostopoulos? Unless of course you wish to make Macedonians out of those BULGARS included in the Neuilly Convention most of whom they left Greece for Bulgaria, and our GREKOMANS speaking the well known idiom of the Prespa area. Do you wish to identify THESE people as.........Macedonians Mr. Kostopoulos? The truth is that back in the times of the Neuilly Convention, there were NO Macedonians of any kind, same as they were not during the early 1900s including the Ilin-Den times, as well as the times BEFORE 1900. The closer to be found Macedonians, are those of the last Macedonian dynasties before the arrival of the Romans back in about 150 B.C. mind the Eastern Thracians, Thessalians, even Paulicians from Asia Minor, all of them be known one time or another as "Macedonians" Yes, or not? Of course we do have a renaming of part of those BULGARIANS as such, BULGARIAN populations living in the Balkans and especially in what was called Vardaska Banovina first, Popular Republic of Macedonia later and actually these days F.Y.R.O.M. Are these the people that you wish to name them as .......Macedonians Mr. Kostopoulos? Or are these people PLUS those Grekomans, meaning people with clear Hellenic conscience, people that for the last 200-300 were more or less forced to adopt the Bulgarian language? But those people, both, Bulgars and Grekomans, hardly belong to any kind of Macedonian ETHNIC conscience, let alone language and Church. So, I am reprinting what you said, and since all of your evidences brought here by you to justify the existence of 200-250,000 Slav-MACEDONIANS are just evidences of populations speaking a Slav-idiom and/or the Bulgarian language, are not acceptable. Let me know when you'll bring your real evidences, I am going to "snip" your so-called "evidences and I'll procede to the "Aristotelis" affair.By the way here is your original statement: > "In the end, however, both countries resorted to violence in order to get > rid of their respective minorities (although this was not achieved > completely -in the casa Greece of Greece, the "remnants" were some 200,000 > Slav-speaking Macedonians, according to classified reports of the Inter-War > years, 80-90,000 of whom were ex-adherents of the Bulgarian Exarchate). > >A. Slav-speaking Macedonians?during the Inter-War years > No Macedonians Mr. Kostopoulos, Macedonians nothing. Slav-speaking BULGARS and Slav-idiom speaking Grekomans. ?? ? >There are much more?ex-classified statistics about the Florina-Kastoria area, covering the years well?until the mid-1960s.? In 1965, foe example, the number of Slav-speaking Macedonians was estimated by the responsible Foreign Ministry (as well as local) officials to be?circa 135-150.000 in the three prefectures of Florina, Kastoria & Pella. In Florina Prefecture, the Greek CIA (KYP) estimated at the same time the Slav-speaking?"indigenous" (gigeneis) as 51.859 or 69,5% of the total prefecture's population [Kostopoulos 2000:223-4].> As yourself proved to this group Mr. Kostopoulos, Slav-speaking populations are not the same as Slav-speaking Macedonians. Such definition was invented in the kitchen of the capital of F.Y.R.O.M. Skopia for internal consuption. ? Part two follows regarding "Aristotelis". Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030115/6fdabe47/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Wed Jan 15 19:01:43 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <1ba.c7e2aa9.2b577a97@aol.com> In a message dated 1/15/03 07:14:33 Pacific Standard Time, LYNGOS writes: Dear Mr. Kostopoulos, here is the second part of my reply, you write: > B. "Aristotelis", its assimilatory role and funding by the "mystika kondylia" > > > > O.K. lets take a look of this one here. > > >1. On 9.11.1960, a special conference of personnalities dealing with the > planning of the assimilation programs for Greek Macedonia (Foreign Minister > Averoff, Interior MInister Makris, Chief of the 1st Diplomatic Directorate > of MFA Heimarios, Prefecture Inspector Karabotsos, Prefects of Florina, > Kastoria & Ioannina, West Macednia Gendarmerie Chief Romanos) decided, > among other things, the secret funding of "Aristotelis". As a first step, > it was decided to give "Aristotelis" a modern Print Machine, worth (then) > 500.000 drachmas. > [Filippos Dragoumis Archives, Gennadeios Library (Athens), f.96, doc.205, > K. Heimarios "Note on the West Macedonia Slav-speakers", Athens 21.6.1963].> > > Who says that donation of a printing macchine is an assimilatory practice? > You? > Where are such assimilatory practices? What did "Aristotelis" in order to > have its actions defined as assimilatory? > Printing with that macchine its own magazine? Does such magazine contains > any kind of assimilatory propaganda? > Against WHOM? > What are the ACTIONS by "Aristotelis" that according to you: > "which the various assimilatory mechanisms (such as Florina's > "Aristotelis"), well-fed by the infamous "secret funds" [mystika kondylia] > all-over the Cold War years, advanced in order to destroy what they called > "the cursed slavic idiom" of Northern Greece."? > What did "Aristotelis" for the DESTRUCTION of the "cursed slavic idiom" of > Northern Greece? > Received a printing macchine? > (By the way I see that indeed you call things by their real names and not > as.........Macedonians). > > > >2. On 9.8.1959, the "Aristotelis" president Tyrpinos participated, > according to the Greek press of those days, to the well-known event of > state-organized collective public oath by the Slav-speaking Florina > villagers of Atrapos (formerly Krapestina), that they will never again > speak even one Slav word from the "much cursed local slavic idiom". > Tyrpinos made a relevant speach to the villagers, while the "Artistotelis" > band played "national popular music", in order to underline the whole > (obviously assimilatory) procedure. > [Newpapers "Ellinikos Vorras" & "Kathimerini", 11.8.1959]. > According to a recent public statement by MFA Macedonian specialist > Evangelos Kofos, the whole event was organized by the Greek CIA.> > > Big Deal! > One of the past presidents of Aristotelis goes with the band and listens to > the choir in ONE isolated instance of oath-giving for the destruction of > that "slavic idiom" back in the days of the Cold War! > Is this how "Aristotelis" was involved in the destruction of the Slav-idiom? > What about the fact that most of the dancers, in its dancing division, were > speaking ONLY the Slav-idiom? > How could they be part of "Aristotelis" speaking such "cursed language"? > > >3. In 1966-67, "Aristotelis" received another 100.000 drs from "secret > funds" of the so-called (and explicitly assimilatory) "Special Macedonian > Programs", channeled through the "Political Affairs Service" of MFA > installed inside the Prefecture. > [Nomarhia Florinis, "Periliptikon Simeioma Eidikou Programmatos anaptyxeos > akritikon periohon nomou Florinis, etous 1967", photocopy in my posession].> > > Lets say that indeed such programs were existing, for the DEVELOPEMENT, as > the proper word is, of counties in the Hellenic border. > Can you explain to us, where such developement is associated with > ASSIMILATION? > And if "Aristotelis" received a financing of 100,000 as contribution to his > programms, can you bring in here such programms by "Aristotelis" aiming in > such assimilation? > > >4. During the junta years (1967-74), the propaganda "lectures" organized > by "Aristotelis" are officially considered as part of the junta > Prefecture's activities ["Ethnos" (Florina) 26.2.1972, p.2 ; for its > contents, "Ethnos" (Fl) 4.3.1972 & 6.5.1972].> > > So? Freedom of expression. Where are such lectures so we can verify if > indeed have or make reference to forced assimilation? > Is the fact that someone from "Aristotelis" was giving a speech which was > considered part of the Prefecture's activities an indication of > "Aristotelis" involvement in assimilations? > > >5. On 16.2.1982, the then National Security Service (YPEA) proposed to the > Greek Government the sponsoring of nationalist "Syllogoi" and their > financing for propaganda purposes (lectures, publishing of books & > magazines, etc), citing explicitly "Aristotelis" as the successful model > for such a project. > [YPEA, "Epivouli kata tis Makedonias" (=Macedonian Issue, according to the > terminology established offivcially on 14.10.1969 [Kostopoulos 2000:261]), > Athens 16.2.1982, no.6502/7-50428. This document was published -entire- for > the first time in September 1989 by the Athens monthly magazine > "Scholisastis" ; later on, parts of it were published also by the newspaper > "Eleftheros Typos" (8.3.1992) and the author Stefanos Sotiriou in his book > "Makedoniko", Athens 1991, p.132-3].> > > Precisely! > "Aristotelis" was indeed an Organization aiming in the PRESERVATION OF > HELLENISM in Florina. > But, "Slav-speaking" populations were ALL the GREKOMANS in Florina and the > Florina County, were they assimilated? > How? Linguistically? Ethnically? Religiously? > Were the lectures, publishing of books, magazines, etc.etc. an attempt to > assimilate them? bring to us in here the contents of such lectures, books, > magazines. > > >Last but not least: it is a little bit problematic to qualify > "Aristotelis" as an "anti-Nazi" organization. Its most revendicated > activity during Nazi occupation of Greece, was the reception (singing the > Greek national anthem) of the Quisling Prime Minister Georgios Tsolakoglou, > during his official visit to Florina (1942). A genuine nationalist action, > undoubtedly -but a rather strange 'anti-Nazi" one, indeed!> > > You like to take out of context my writings I see. I clearly indicated that > "Aristotelis" fought against the triple occupation of Florina. Against the > NAZIs, against the FASCISTs and..............against the BULGARS. > From, "Aristotelis"'s magazine, number 151, January-February 1982, and from > a speech by my defunct father with title " "Aristotelis, 1941-1981 Forty > Years Offerings to the History of Florina", page 17, translation mine, > capital letters mine too: > > "Then on May the 9th 1942 arrives the Greek Prime Minister, in a critical > moment, when the ANNEXATION of Florina to BULGARIA was considered as > impending; he comes to encourage and strengthen the resistance of the > population, and he is met by an extremely fanatical and extremely ready to > fight sea of people ; he visits "Aristotelis"and attends a festive ethnic > celebration and a nationalistic delirium for two hours; himself is > encouraged, and when in the end of the manifestation he listens to the > National Anthem sang by the little boys and little girls of the famous by > then "Childrens' Choir", directed by the invalid hero of the Albanian > front, and officer in the reserves, he can not keep anymore his abundant > tears; leaving, from the balkony of the Prefecture, proceeds with > extremely harsh statements against the BULGARIANS, and because of his > statements he is forced to return to Athens by the Occupation Authorities > immediately". > > As you can see Mr. Kostopoulos, and as yourself pointed out, the children > and the people of Florina had the GUTS to sing the Hellenic National Anthem > in the middle of a town occupied by Germans, Italians and BULGARS, when > such an action those days ment DEATH. Per se it was an act of HEROISM > against the Occoupiers, against the ones dreaming of ANNEXING our town to > BULGARIA. > Do not challenge "Aristotelis" Mr. Kostopoulos, its History is synonymous > with that of HELLAS. > > Oh.........one more thing with regards your statement: > "There are posted here not as a reply to "Lyngos" (whose style and > arguments I personnaly judge far from >serious, anyway) but for anybody > among the List members that could be interested about such things.>" > > Let the members of this list judge my seriousness, arguments and my style. > Have a nice day and search for your "Makedonians". > > > Greetings from Athens> > > Greetings from California > > Tasos Kostopoulos> > > George Sofoklis Tsapanos. > Regards to all.....................L. > > "Vlachs, the autochthonous > of the Hellenic Peninsula". > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030115/1993ade8/attachment.html From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Wed Jan 15 07:07:17 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Message-ID: <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> Tasos Kostopulos wrote: > A. Slav-speaking Macedonians during the Inter-War years 1. Education > Bureau of the Feneral Diractorate of Macedonia (GDM), 1914: "more than > 250.000"(that is, before the population exchanges but after the 1913 > "departure" of circa 50.000 Slav-Macedonians)[Ion Dragoumis Archives, > Genadeios Library (Athens), f.10, Eythymios Mpountonas "Notes on Law > 568", Athens 19.4.1915, p.3]. 2. General Directorate of Macedonia, > 1923: 167.897 in Central & Western Macedonia only (i.e. except Eastern > Macedonia)[Greek Foreign Ministry Archives (IAYE), f.1923/B37.1, GDM > A.Lambrou to Interior Ministry, Salonica 31.5.1923, Confidential > Protocol, no.542 (quoted by Iakovos Mihailidis in his Ph.D., Salonica > 1996) ; also, IAYE, f.1923/7.3, Foreign Ministry Secretary P.Lekkos to > GDM, Salonica 31.3.1923, Confidential Protocol, no.394].In Eastern > Macedonia, GDM as well as the Greek General Staff found in 1915 no > less than 48.000 Slav-speaking Macedonians[Greek Army Staff, "The > population of Eastern Macedonia by nationalities", Athens 1919 (in > Greek) ; Stefanos Dragoumis Archives, Gennadeios Library (Athens), > f.217, doc.5 ; Eleftherios Venizelos Archives (Benaki Museum > Archives), f.101].A simple addition of those numbers, shows a total of > ~235.000 Slav-speaking Macedonians on the eve of the population > exchanges. 3. General Colonisation Directorate of Macedonia, 1924: > 30.898 Slav-spaeking families with "slavic leanings" (slavizousai) and > 26.865 families of "foreign-tongue speakers" (xenofonoi) [that is, > with allegedly Greek "national consciousness"], almost all > Slav-speakers (except some 1.000-1.500 families of > Vlachs).[Konstantinos Karavidas Archives, Gennadeios Library (Athens), > General Colonisation Directorate of Macedonia "Table showing the > families that are not fullly Greek, their number as well as the > foreign-tongue-speaking ones", Salonica 3.3.1924, no454]. 4. General > Directorate of Macedonia, 1925: 173.734 Slav-speakers, of whom 76,098 > ex-Patriarchist and 97.636 ex-Exarchist[document quoted by > I.Michailidis in "I Makedonia mesa apo tis statistikes: i periptosi > ton Slavofonon", Praktika IE' Panelliniou Istorikou Synedriou, > Salonica 1995, p.418] 5. 3rd Army Corps, 1925: "about 250.000", of > whom 35.000 are going to leave Greece, according the Neuilly > Convention.[GDM Archives, f.89B, "Memorandum about the situation of > foreign propagandas in the Army Corps area and North Greece, in > general", p.3 & 10). 6.. Syllogos for Propagation of Greek Letters > (SDEG), 1927: "around 200.000", of whom 80-90.000 "ex-Schismatic" > and 100-120.000 ex-Patriarchist ; "Of this Bulgarian-speaking > population, 30-35.000 live in Eastern Macedonia, around 60.000 in > Central Macedonia and the rest 100.000 or more in Western > Macedonia? (Venizelos Archives, f.373, SDEG Secretary P.Demetriades to > the Prime Minister, Athens 23.12.1927, no.38]. For the benefit of the readers who may not be familiar with the underlying issues of the so-called Macedonian question, it is imperative that the above statistics must be put in context. It should be noted from the outset that the designation of ?Slav-speaking Macedonians? conveys the erroneous impression of a historically-defined ethnic continuity with the modern nation of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), a contestable claim that warrants a critical and sober reappraisal. As Vlassis Vlasidis and Veniamin Karakostanoglou assert: _ The distinct Slavic dialect spoken in certain villages in Greek Macedonia does not necessarily certify the existence of an ethnic minority._ http://www.abest.com/~angelos/Vlasidis.htm But who were these ?Slav-speaking Macedonians? cited in the aforementioned references/sources? A fundamental premise that defines Greek consciousness and identity is its inherent relationship to Romiosyni, the ?Millet-i-Rum? and hence the Mother Church, viz. the Patriarchate of Constantinople, during the centuries' old Ottoman rule. It should be noted that the various Patriarchs were also *Ethnarchs* of a multilingual flock of Orthodox Christians (Rum Millet) without regard for ?racial?, ?tribal? or ?genealogical? precursors. Concomitant with the ?schismatic apostasy' of the Bulgarian Exarchate and the eruption of nationalisms in the Balkans from the 19th century through the early part of the 20th century, the ?slavonic-speaking? inhabitants of the geographical region defined as ?Macedonia? were split into two camps: the pro-Bulgarian ?exarchists? and the pro-Greek ?patriarchists?. This particular point needs to be critically emphasized in light of the fact that a significant percentage of ?slav-speakers? were (a) ?ethnic Greek? (Graikoi, Vlachs/Arvanitovlachs) as well as (b) individuals of putative Bulgarian origin but with overtly Greek national orientation, known as ?Graecomans? or ?Grecomans?. The latter were loyal ?patriarchists? expressing unequivocally and resolutely a Greek identity, even though they were not Greek-speaking. A fundamental linguistic issue arises with regard to the identity of the so-called Slav-speaking Macedonians. From a Greek historical perspective, language has neither been an *a priori* signature, nor a prerequisite of national identity, particularly during the latter part of 19th and early part of the 20th centuries. Indeed, during this protracted period (and beyond), a considerable number of Greek adherents in the region, including Vlachs, would use a slavonic-based or slavonic-influenced idiom. Many Greeks, presumably the more educated, were at least bilingual (i.e., both Greek- and Slav-speaking) or frequently polyglot, i.e., they were fluent in Greek, Vlachic (a semi-Latin idiom), Albanian and Slavonic dialects. Yet, numerous others, so-called ?agrammatoi? (illiterate, in Gk) would use the ?corrupted? slavonic idiom (amalgamated with Greek elements as well) whilst retaining in no uncertain terms their Greek consciousness and loyalty to the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Lastly, any statistics, from virtually any source(s) (particularly any data produced by the parties in conflict, viz. Bulgaria and Greece) should be viewed with circumspection. On the other hand, the Ottoman census might prove to be more credible in this connection, for it is based on longstanding familiarity with the ethnographic make-up of the various Vilayets. Appended below is the ?Statistical Information from the Ottoman yearbook of 1902 for the Bitola (Vitola; Monastir) Vilaet? [it should be noted that the URL http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/pasha.htm contains **annotations from a Bulgarian perspective**; according to the Bulgarians the interpretation of ?nationality? was based on language. In contrast, the Greek definition was consistent with the Patriarchal definition of the "Genos" and "Romiosyni" i.e., it was based solely on ?consciousness?. I should like to draw attention to the Greek populations in *Bitola (Monastir)* and *Krushevo*, inviting possible speculations as to the fate and present whereabouts of their progeny. It is noteworthy that there is no mention of an ethnic ?Makedonian? group in the Ottoman census. _1. inserted is title page of the Yearbook. 2. Given is the following data for the city of Bitola (called Monastir in Turkish): The total population of the city is given as 89,985 people consisting of: a/ Moslems (Turks, Albanians, etc.) 24,713 b/ Greeks and Vlahs 30,036 c/ Bulgarians 30,891 d/ Jews 4,264 Note [FROM A BULGARIAN PERSPECTIVE]: The number of the other small minority groups are not given here. The Yearbook does not refer separately to Turks, Albanians and the other Moslem ethnic groups as Gypsies and Bulgarians, but puts them under the general name as ?Moslems'. After the Balkan war of 1912-13, a considerable number of Moslems left not only the Bitola Vilaet, but also other provinces in Macedonia. [snip] 7. On page 58 for the district of Krushevo the total number of the population is given as 11,283, and divided as follows a/ Moslems 140 b/ Vlahs and Greeks 5,305 c/ Bulgarians 5,838 Respectfully submitted, Christos D. Katsetos, MD, PhD, MRCPath Drexel University College of Medicine and St. Christopher's Hospital for Children P.S. I have just read the latest message by Mr. Tsapanos ('LYNGOS') and give credence to his arguments concerning the Slav-speaking Grecomans (vide supra). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030115/0313ee1b/attachment.html From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Wed Jan 15 20:06:16 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Harry Potter in Greece References: <1a6.f19a177.2b57797e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E262FB8.4215733A@hermesnetwork.com> JUNESAM@aol.com wrote: > I was surprised to see this happening in Greece, even though > I know the books are as popular there as everwhere else. So, you were surprised. I knew you weren't speaking out against another's right to freedom expressing or of choosing what their children ought or ought not to be exposed to, but I just had to make sure. What shouldn't surprise you is that a large part of the typically "Greek" experience of life is a certain sense of religiosity and yes, even superstition. From my extensive personal, life-long experience of Greeks and living among them both in Canada, and in Greece, I can assure you that they are generally [by and large, but not all] suspicious of 'the black arts', cabalistics etc., or symbols thereof. But what can we do? That's a good part of what made My Big Fat Greek Wedding such a laugh! or Zorba the Greek such a Classic etc... If you are Greek by birth/upbringing you ought to know what I'm referring to, even if you do not accept it for yourself (i.e. the superstition and a certain sense/conviction of a certain religiosity). So, I am glad to see that you were surprised and not incredulous or outraged. Yes, Greeks are a little superstitious, they always have been, since the times of Agamemnon and even before that... What are we to do? Wipe them out? Muzzle them? Lock them up? I think not, and I'm glad to see you do too. Don't be too surprised though, in future. :-) Most of us mean well. Best Regards, Sotiris Sotiropoulos From ssm at panafonet.gr Thu Jan 16 04:11:04 2003 From: ssm at panafonet.gr (Simeon Magliveras) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Changing social landscape Message-ID: <001701c2bd58$a9228a20$c020f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> A historic perspective is important to explain why a people have particular customs and traditions or even why they feel a particular way but it does have limitations(as all disciplines do) especially when changing or reevaluation self defined by the past in a changing present. The past defines how a group may differ from another (as Boas conceptualized) But how a society/culture deals with new situation is only partly based on the past. Greece today is not a static place. In the last ten years it has become a emigration state vs. an migration state. It has very different populations which cannot be placed into a simple dichotomy of Christian/Muslim context, as a result definitions of who our neighbors are is more complex. In the study I am doing the Albanians are described as a cultural treat but the south Asians who now outnumber Albanians in the area are seen as benign. Groups will start asking for civil rights from the state and the state will be obligated to give them a lot of what they are asking. Where an I going with this? Well, Greece has a great need of their immigrant populations just as all modern western states are. 21% of the GMP is a result of the Albanian workforce (Iofisides 1998). In addition shrinking Greek populations need workers to maintain the society either as labor but more so as a tax base to maintain the infrastructure and social welfare system. So National strategies to maintain the society from the past no longer are valid today. On another subject, Greece or Greeks now have a new identity which changes its/their relationship with their neighbors.... Europe What will it do to Greekenss in the future? ssm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030116/9c5abe53/attachment.html From george.syrimis at yale.edu Thu Jan 16 06:53:54 2003 From: george.syrimis at yale.edu (George Syrimis) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:02 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Balkan Cinema conference program Message-ID: My apologies for the illegibility of my message on the Balkan Cinema program. Apparently there must be some incompatibility between the original file and my Eudora. I will resend it later in the day. All the information is also at the following website: http://www.yale.edu/filmstudiesprogram/Balkan%20intro.html Thanks, George Syrimis From Yannis_Fakazis/GiP at greeceinprint.com Thu Jan 16 07:01:35 2003 From: Yannis_Fakazis/GiP at greeceinprint.com (Yannis_Fakazis/GiP@greeceinprint.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] NYXTES STHN ARKADIA author? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030116/d4ca4b87/attachment.html From tkostop at enet.gr Thu Jan 16 07:14:24 2003 From: tkostop at enet.gr (Tasos Kostopulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> The Ottoman statistics never referred to what we call ethnic groups, but only to members of the officially recognized (by political expediency) Millets. (There were some local exceptions during the 19th century -at least as long as some analysis of the whole system, writen by Ion Dragoumis, allow us to understand -but by early 20th century, this practice hed been long abolished). Moreover, those statistics were compiled by officials following instructions and / or bargaining with the various local Christian Church authorities (millet-bashi). The Hilmi Pasha census of 1905 (when armed bands from Greece, Bulgaria as well as the Vrhovist faction of IMRO violently pressured the villagers to declare the respective "correct" nationality [=millet]) is the clearest example of all. Undoubtedly, the identity of all inhabitants of Ottoman Macedonia (Christians or Moslems) was connected both to their affiliation within the "millet" system, as well as to their belonging to one or the other linguistic, proffesional etc group. As far as we can understand using the available (and not at all exausted by the researchers yet) historical sources, there is a clear-cut difference in the self-identification of the Slav-spaeking Macedonians before and after the Schism of 1872 (and the subsequent creation / recognition of a distinct Millet-i-Bulgar by the Ottoman authorities). Before 1872, every Slav-speaking Christian of the (then) European territories of the Ottoman Empire was called "Bulgarian" ; afterwards, and for the next decade, the official distinction (at least as long as the Greek diplomatic and public discource was concerned) was that between "Bulgarian Slavs" (Slavovoulgaroi) and "Bulgarian Greeks" (Ellinovoulgaroi) -i.e. Exarchists and Patriarchists. It was only after 1877 that the self-identification of the "Bulgarian-speaking Greeks" as "Macedonians" was publicly promoted by the Greek propaganda machinery (the first step may has been the anonymous pro-Greek "Ethnographic Map" published in 1877 by Edward Stanford, paid by the Greek Foreign Ministry and in reality created by the Greek Ambassador [or Attache -I don't remember exactly] in London, Georgios Gennadeios). As far as the Exarchist Slav-speaking Macedonians were concerned, a similar self-identification as "Macedonians" is openly used after the 1880s, when the distinction between the "Bulgarians" of the autonomous Bulgarian Principality and those remaining in the unredeemed Ottoman Macedonian territories was institutionalized. In the early years of the 20th century -and much more after Bulgaria's lack of intevention during the repression of the Ilinden uprising (together with Greece's official cooperation with the Ottoman authorities in its repression)- the public discussion began, how much the Slav-Macedonians are a distinct nationality. This opinion (that Slav-speaking Christians of Macedonia constitute a distinct "Macedonian" nationality) was shared, among others, and by Patroclos Kontoyanis -Military Attache in the Greek Embassy of Costantinople (now Istanbul) and better known as the creator of those semi-official Greek Maps showing the distribution of Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Rumanian schools in the 4 vilayets of Ottoman Macedoni, Epirus and Thrace (1904, reproduced since then many times -as in the semi-official "History of the Greek nation" [1977] etc). In a report of 1905, mimeographed in those days for internal circulation by the MFA machinery and found today in the MFA Archives, we read its conclusions: "In the villages of Middle Macedonia" [i.e., the northernmost 2/3 of today's Greek Macedonia, as well as the southernmost 1/3 of today's FYROM and the Bulgarian Pirin region], we read there, "it is not possible to speak about ethnic difference [among the Slav-speaking population], since from the ethnographic viewpoint it's not possible for one brother to be Greek and the other Bulgarian -two brothers cannot belong to different races. So, the distinction between Exarchists and Patriarchists cannot be considered a distinction between different nationalities, Bulgarian and Greek. Their racial substance being one and the same in the villages of Middle Macedonia, it would be much more correct, I think, if their inhabitants were called, the Orthodox [=Patriarchist] Bulgarian-speakers 'pro-Greek Macedonians' and the Schismatics 'pro-Bulgarian Macedonians'. In bothe cases, their nationality is common, i.e. the Macedonian one". [In the Greek prototype: "En tois horiois pragmasi tis Mesis Makedonias, then einai dynaton na ginei ethnografiki diafora, afou ethnographikos den einai dynaton ek dyo adelgfon na einai o men Ellin o de Voulgaros, den einai dynaton dyop adelfoi n' anikosi eis fylas diaforous. Outo i diakrisis en tois horiois, peri on prokeitai, eis shismatikous kai othodoxous, den dynatai na dikaiologisei pragmati diakrisin ethnotiton, Voulgarikis kai Ellinikis. Tis fylletikis de ypostaseos ousis eniaias en tois horiois tis Mesis makedonias, ithelon einai kat' eme orthoteron ean oi katoikoi auton apekalounto oi men orthodoxoi Voulgarofonoi, "Makedones Ellinizontes", os akolouthountes tin Ellinikin Ekklisian kai stellontes ta tekna afton eis ta ellinika sholeia, oi de shismatikoi "Makedones Voulgarizontes", os akolouthountes tin voulgarikin ekklisian kai pempontes ta tekna afton eis ta voulgatrika sholeia. I ethnotis de einai i afti kai eis tas dyo taftas katigorias, itoi i Makedoniki" [IAYE, f.1905/68, P.Kontogiannis "Ekthesis peri Makedonias. B. Thessaloniki-Skopia", Constantinople 26.8.1905]. Of course, we are not obliged to consider Kontoyanis' analysis as anything more than one historical source among others. But I think it is a little bit problematic to pass over all this evidence so easily, as if such a discussion has never hapenned (publicly and/or inside the various responsible state institutions). Greetings from Greece Tasos Kostopoulos ----- Original Message ----- From: Christos D. Katsetos To: Tasos Kostopulos Cc: MGSA-L@uci.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia ----[Deleted for reasons of over-loading] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030116/a568d08a/attachment.html From YalieFan at aol.com Thu Jan 16 07:42:41 2003 From: YalieFan at aol.com (YalieFan@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] cooking burner Message-ID: <7BF9DCBC.2841C12D.00879A3D@aol.com> My husband just got back from Greece and he mentioned that my in-laws had expanded the kitchen in our condo slightly. The first thing I asked him is "Does your mother still have the "petrogaz" in the kitchen?" She does! She has the 2-burner affair with the hose to the "bottilia" of "petrogaz". This is in a modern kitchen in a condo in Athens. She has a large (American) side-by-side refrigerator, a dishwasher,an oven, a microwave oven....and still has the "petrogaz"!! Plus ca change....plus c'est la meme chose! Marianna Steriadis From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Thu Jan 16 07:44:01 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Changing social landscape In-Reply-To: <001701c2bd58$a9228a20$c020f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030116101639.00b8ffb0@mail.hermesnetwork.com> At 02:11 PM 1/16/2003 +0200, Simeon Magliveras wrote: > >On another subject, Greece or Greeks now have a new identity which >changes its/their relationship with their neighbors.... Europe >What will it do to Greekenss in the future? Probably not very much. Four hundred years of foreign subjugation and occupation could not take the Greekness out of us Greeks. What makes you think a Common Market will? Greek culture and society has displayed a remarkable resiliency and tenacity down the ages. I can't think of another ethnos that has a similar record. Can you? As an adjunct note: Last weekend, I happened to walk into a 7-11 convenience store for a purchase. As I walked up to the counter, I took my place in line to pay. Immediately ahead of me were two black men. As I got close to the pair, I could make out their conversation with each other... and it was in Greek! [Pretty damn good Greek too.] I chatted with them briefly and learned they were from Africa and had lived for several years in Greece. Furthermore, both of them expressed regrets about their leaving Greece and coming to Canada! And they are not the only ones. I have met many more like them, including one chap (and his sister) who are Ethiopians and work at the community centre near my home. Both of them lived in Greece for 5 years and speak excellent Greek, and they sing the praises of Greece and the Greeks very highly indeed. In fact, just yesterday, I saw Berhan (the Ethiopian chap) while I was working out at the centre. I mentioned to him that there were people on a mailing list dedicated to Modern Greece who claim Greeks do not treat foreign immigrants well and are racists. He asked that I refer anyone who holds such opinions to himself as he would straighten them out in no uncertain terms. If anyone is indeed interested, I would be happy to refer you. So, I have no reservations about the future of Greeks and Greekness. Our language and culture has made it this far, and it will continue. We are a philoxenos laos and everyone including our defamers and detractors know this about us. We will endure, come what may, I have no doubts about that. Xaire, Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030116/404925ef/attachment.html From YalieFan at aol.com Thu Jan 16 08:02:50 2003 From: YalieFan at aol.com (YalieFan@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Harry Potter in Greece Message-ID: <625FF91F.150A561D.00879A3D@aol.com> In a message dated 1/15/2003 5:54:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sotiris Sotiropoulos writes: >At 04:19 PM 1/15/2003 -0500, JUNESAM@aol.com wrote: > >>Oh, Lord ! >> >>Can't religious leaders and churches address some of the REAL >>real issues in society instead of foaming at the mouth about fictions ??? > >Excuse me, I don't want you to misconstrue my curiosity in any way, but I'd >like to ask you a couple questions about your sentiments above. > >Is it that you are incredulous or simply surprised that some people are of >the opinion that what their children read is a REAL real issue. ?Do you >have some kind of a problem with that? ?If so, what? is it because it's the >Church specifically? ?Are you in any way implying that the Church and >religious leaders of Greece ought not to have any right to publicly express >their opinions on whatever they deem worthy of their >attention? ?Furthermore, why do you feel the need to bring this particular >piece of ephemera to the list's attention, and not something else a little >more relevant? ?Last I checked, Harry Potter was not Greek, although I am >aware, that a reference to a Greek who sold the three-headed dog (Cerberus) >to Hagrid was changed to an Irishman in the first movie. > >Again, please do not misconstrue my questions. ?I am just trying to >understand what motivated your original message. > > > >>June S >>----------------------------- I for one am very glad Harry Potter was brought to the attention of this list. The Harry Potter books are some of the most delightful, clever pieces of children's fiction that have been written in a long time. I refuse, however, to get dragged into the inflammatory remarks of Mr. Sotiropoulos above. I am only surprised it took the Greek Orthodox prelates so long to espouse this predictable view. Does reading about imaginary, fantastic events make us devil-worshippers or believers in magic? I think not. Reading about the Greek Gods and Goddesses (myths) does not make us necessarily believe in Gods and Goddesses, or make us less Christian (Jewish, Muslim, etc). Reading the Wizard of Oz series did not make us prone to practicing wizardry, any more than the Harry Potter series. I actually have the French versions of the Harry Potter books for my advanced French language students to use for additional reading practice- when reading is fun, high schoolers tend to read more! Marianna Steriadis, Ph.D. World Languages Department, French and Modern Greek Tarpon Springs High School Tarpon Springs, FL From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Thu Jan 16 08:18:04 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Harry Potter in Greece In-Reply-To: <625FF91F.150A561D.00879A3D@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030116110943.00b99488@mail.hermesnetwork.com> At 11:02 AM 1/16/2003 -0500, YalieFan@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 1/15/2003 5:54:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sotiris >Sotiropoulos writes: > > >At 04:19 PM 1/15/2003 -0500, JUNESAM@aol.com wrote: > > > >>Oh, Lord ! > >> > >>Can't religious leaders and churches address some of the REAL > >>real issues in society instead of foaming at the mouth about fictions ??? > > > >Excuse me, I don't want you to misconstrue my curiosity in any way, but I'd > >like to ask you a couple questions about your sentiments above. > > > >Is it that you are incredulous or simply surprised that some people are of > >the opinion that what their children read is a REAL real issue. Do you > >have some kind of a problem with that? If so, what? is it because it's the > >Church specifically? Are you in any way implying that the Church and > >religious leaders of Greece ought not to have any right to publicly express > >their opinions on whatever they deem worthy of their > >attention? Furthermore, why do you feel the need to bring this particular > >piece of ephemera to the list's attention, and not something else a little > >more relevant? Last I checked, Harry Potter was not Greek, although I am > >aware, that a reference to a Greek who sold the three-headed dog (Cerberus) > >to Hagrid was changed to an Irishman in the first movie. > > > >Again, please do not misconstrue my questions. I am just trying to > >understand what motivated your original message. > > > > > > > >>June S > >>----------------------------- > I for one am very glad Harry Potter was brought to the attention of > this list. The Harry Potter books are some of the most delightful, > clever pieces of children's fiction that have been written in a long time. > I refuse, however, to get dragged into the inflammatory remarks of Mr. > Sotiropoulos above. What inflammatory remarks exactly? I just asked a few questions to get a better understanding of June's motivation in bringing it to our attention. I made no statements, only asked a few questions. Many of us Greeks (by far the >large< majority) are Greek Orthodox Christians, I just wanted to know if June had some kind of a problem with those of us who are Orthodox Christians and hold certain beliefs about what our children ought or ought not to be reading. If you find that inflammatory, that's your problem. Good Day, Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services From AKarpathak at aol.com Thu Jan 16 09:59:33 2003 From: AKarpathak at aol.com (AKarpathak@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: MGSA-L digest, Vol 1 #300 - 3 msgs Message-ID: <7FA1ACFE.34A8B947.09E588BC@aol.com> I know this is four days later, but... too much work, too much interesting discussion on emails, too little time... so I'll try even if late. I think that in order for us to understand the breaking up of the Balkan states into ethno-confessional states we need to not only look at the history of the groups in the region, but also current global politics. While I'm not an expert in the region, I do not even research it at all, I have nevertheless noticed (perhaps I am off on this, if so, please do correct me,) that the creation of these states was done with the blessing of the larger nation-states involved in NATO, and in particular, with the hooraying of the U.S. Anybody care to comment on why? No nation state in the region has been created, now or in the past, without the direct approval and/or aid of major nation-state players. Anna K. In a message dated 1/11/2003 2:49:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Glen D. Camp" writes: > ? ?I do. ?I think "self-determiantion" is desirable in some cases, but >undesirable in others. ?To apotheosize it is very dangerous as witness the >fissiparous tendencies in >ex-Yugoslavia where the entire country broke up into fragments which then >sub-fragmented, e.g., BiH broke into Republik Srpska and Republik Hvatska >as the Serb minority insisted on its "right" to national self-determination, >the Croat >minority ditto, and this then forced the "Bosniaks" or Muslims to convert their >religious minority claim into a national self-determination one! > ? ?Where one draws the line as fragmentation and subdivision become absurd is >a *very* difficult moral, ethical, and political problem. > ? ?The other problem has to do with the ?basic principle of the state. ?Should >it be ?based on "ethnicity" alone. ?To do this means that the state is *not* a >"civil" society but rather an ethnic one. > ? ?Thus all 6 Yugoslav "states" were based on ethnicity alone as are the >other ?Balkan states including Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, Romania, >Hungary, >etc. ?Now how can any of these states develop true "civil societies" if they >are >based on ethnicity when right across the border are similarly ethnic-based >states >which appeal to minorities within the first country, klp., Hungary with >Romanians across the border, Romania with Hungarians, Macedonia with a large >Albanian population who feel "left out" in a state which demands to be called >"Macedonia" >etc. > ? ?Thus ethnic-based states almost beg for animosity and hatreds within their >borders since the history of Balkan states is one of pressure by the dominant >majority which considers itself the "custodial elites" against the minorities >to >conform to the majority's idea of itself. > ? ?And this problem of majority-minority relations leading to the break-up of >states applies to Russia in Chechnya, Ukraine, etc. etc. > > ? ?The only solution I see is to change the basis of the state from ethnicity >to civil society with a slow evolution toward a unitary liberal democratic >state as in Greece which Arvinitis consider themselves as part of the "Hellenic >Republic" even when >they speak Arvinitiki (as someone pointed out Melina Mercuri did) or Vlachs >also >etc. ?The problem remaining for Greece, of course includes Pomiaki, and >so-called "Muslims" (i.e., Turks) who are occasionally exploited for propaganda >purposes by Ankara. > ? ?Thus Canada, the US, Australia, and now Britain which is "devolving" its >local >governments and thus encouraging its minorites (Welsh, Scotch, and Irish) to >become even more "British" but *not* English! > > ? ?Glen Camp > > >Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote: > >> At 12:04 AM 1/11/2003 +0200, Simeon Magliveras wrote: >> >> >In response to Mr. Sotiropoulos, Democracy is not just the wishes of the >> >majority but also the obligation to the minority and the obligation to >> >protect less powerful groups from the selfish desires of the majority. >> >History, time and time again has shown the powerful dealt with minority >> >problem by assimilation or genocide. >> >> I am certainly not in favour of any genocidal tendencies, but what is wrong >> with assimilation? ?The idea that one is a transplanted individual come to >> live among some predominantly heterogeneous, indigenous population ought to >> engender some respect for what is already established and acceptable to a >> majority of the natives. ?Nobody says one cannot maintain one's identity >> within a larger milieu, but to demand that the nation in question (any >> nation) bend and alter its ways to accommodate often unwelcome newcomers is >> a little much for many to stomach don't you think? ?Resentment and petty >> hatreds are sure to follow. ?On the other hand, if everyone expects and >> receives the same treatment, sooner or later assimilation will take >> place. ?Short-term solutions are what political correctness and libertarian >> ideologues are all about, but what about the long-term perspectives? are >> there any? should there be? >> >> I am curious. ?Is there anyone on this list which questions the right of a >> nation state to self-determination via a majority and democratically held >> establishment? >> >> Sotiris Sotiropoulos >> ? ? ? ? ?Hermes Network Inc. >> ? ? ? ? ?Toronto, Canada >> ? ? ? ? ?416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST >> ? ? ? ? ?http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services >> ? ? ? ? ?"Home of the $8.75 Domain Registration" >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > >_______________________________________________ >List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 10:38:39 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn In-Reply-To: <3E252536.A89F0599@tc.umn.edu> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030117133528.00b36e70@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Interestingly enough (despite the snubs from the IOC and ATHOC), I found that the British Olympic Association is using my translation of the HYMN, but they have not included my name as the translator! see: http://www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp (I emailed them about it and I hope they remedy the situation ASAP, copyright violation is a serious matter as I'm sure they know...) Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services Established, Fast, Reliable. Since 1998 From LYNGOS at aol.com Fri Jan 17 10:51:46 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <16b.1953949d.2b59aac2@aol.com> Mr. T. Kostopoulos writes: >The Ottoman statistics never referred to what we call ethnic groups, but only to members of the officially recognized (by political expediency) Millets . > The Ottoman statistics almost always referred to what we call ethnic groups, matter of fact the word millet means "ethnicity, people." Political expediencies were at times behind characterizations in the Ottoman I.D.s (nofuzis) of a certain "millet". The last such invented "millet" or Ethnicity, was the creation of a Vlachian one, in order to weaken the Hellenic side, to which were adherents most of the Vlachs. > The Hilmi Pasha census of 1905 (when armed bands from Greece, Bulgaria as well as the Vrhovist?faction of IMRO violently pressured the villagers to declare the respective "correct" nationality [=millet]) is the clearest example of all.> Not such census. The Hilmi Pasha census took place in 1904, and it was published by the official turkish newspaper of Thessaloniki, "Assir" number 994/1904. It appeared in many other European newspapers ,as well as magazines and books, including that, of Giovani Amadori Virgili "La Question Roumeliota" (First volume 1908-Bitonto, page 226) . The reason for the Bulgarians to press the peasants of Makedonia to declare themselves as belonging to the Exarchy, was the 2/3 rule. Rule, that after the initial declaration of pro-Patrirachical and pro-Exarchical cities, villages, even parishes within the same area, the non-defined ones would be defined and declared as belonging to the Patriarchate or the Exarchy, according to a 2/3 majority of the population. > Before 1872, every Slav-speaking Christian of the (then) European territories of the Ottoman Empire was called "Bulgarian" ;> Absolutely not true! We have plenty testimonies from the days of Elviya Celebi all the way to the Serbian Patriarchical references and many other sources, that the Slav-speaking populations were divided in SERBIAN and BULGARIAN. > afterwards, and for the next?decade, the official?distinction (at least as long as the Greek diplomatic and public discource was concerned) was that between "Bulgarian Slavs" (Slavovoulgaroi) and "Bulgarian Greeks" (Ellinovoulgaroi) -i.e. Exarchists and Patriarchists. Absolutely not true! Between 1872 and 1882 ( the Exarchy was created in 1870), the old divisions remained. What took place it was the more frequent use of the name "BUGARI", of which the Bulgarians made plenty of propaganda. What was a word without Ethnic meaning, as clealry our Dimitrios Polyzos is pointing out in his notes, translating the book by the Jugoslavian Dr. L.Triniegorsky " The Foreign Jugoslavian Minorities" Beograd 1938, translation 1949 Athens, written in the Croatian language,such non-Ethnic name was used in order for the Bulgarians to create Ethnic (Nationalistic) relations with the Slav-speaking populations of Macedonia, with which they were not having any PHYLETIC RELATION. Let alone of course the fact that "Bulgarian Greeks" or "Ellhnovoulgaroi is a word that was never issued, since creates an oxymoron, and if it was used, is pondering questions as to its meaning. >It was only after 1877 that the self-identification of the "Bulgarian-speaking Greeks" as "Macedonians"?> Finally we agree in something. Indeed the Greeks speaking the Bulgarian language, or if Mr. Kostopoulos agrees, the Bulgarian or Slav-idiom, were known as Macedonians. In other words after 1877 Macedonians=Greeks. >As far as the Exarchist Slav-speaking Macedonians were concerned, a similar self-identification as "Macedonians" is openly used after the 1880s, when the distinction between the "Bulgarians" of the autonomous Bulgarian Principality and those?remaining in the unredeemed Ottoman Macedonian territories was institutionalized.> There were no Exarchist Slav-speaking"Macedonians" of any kind before or after 1880, those were known as BULGARIANS, period. Matter of fact the Exarchists were FANATIC Bulgarians and not just philo-Bulgarians. The Bulgarians did not want any peasant from Macedonia to have an ETHNIC conscience in front of the Exarchy. Such notion has been supported by Sopoff ( the Bulgarian commerce attache in Thessaloniki), Gersin ( Macedonien 1903), professor Hristo Kovacic (the Balkan peninsula), Penker, Oestreich, Poskovsky, as well as the great ethnologist Cvijic. ( notes taken again from Polyzos). We also have the ones mentioned as "Slav-Macedonians" by Virgili (attributed to the Bulgarian Verkovic since 1860), people living in Macedonia speaking the slav idiom, but those again they were WITHOUT ETHNIC Conscience. A good place for anyone to verify how and when the "genesis" and "creation" of a "Macedonian" Ethnic conscience took place is the Ellis Island Archives-Records, where people were declaring what they were feeling to be ETHNICALLY and in many times not what was written in their passports. http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/ It is a wonderfull site, people from the same village, with three-four different Ethnicities, people from the same village calling it as belonging to three-four different states, people from the same village, changing their declarations over the years from 1892 till 1924 and so on. I intend to include different cases from there into my book in order to prove how and when Makedonism was first introduced in America. >Of course, we are not obliged to consider Kontoyanis' analysis as anything more than one historical source among others.? But I think it is a little bit problematic to pass over all this evidence so easily, as if?such a discussion has never hapenned (publicly and/or inside the various responsible state institutions).> Of course we are not, given the fact that the Southern Hellenes were helping the Bulgarians "fighting" the Turks, with the blessings of Russia, Austria, England as well as the Catholics. The Panslavic propaganda had done a good job. Hellas, never before 1903, was seriously involved in the Makedonian affair. If Makedonia was won for Hellas, it was because of the Vlachs, the Slav-Speaking peasants of Macedonia (both be called as Grekomans) and certain individuals from the South. All of them had foreseen the intentions of the Russian bear as well as that of Panslavism. And it was because of them that Macedonia was united with Hellas since it was always part of Hellas. Do we have a Slav-speaking population in Hellas these days, population that wants to identify itself as Non-Greek ? Yes we do, 4,951 people. ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030117/9abf199a/attachment.html From JUNESAM at aol.com Fri Jan 17 11:47:36 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Mount Athos Message-ID: <64.2b449764.2b59b7d8@aol.com> [13] Gov't on status of Mount Athos monastic community Athens, 17/01/2003 (ANA) All discussion about the special status of Mount Athos had no object since this had been established in the Accession Treaty with which Greece joined the EEC and the relevant section had been preserved in all subsequent treaties, government spokesman Christos Protopapas stressed on Thursday. The all-male monastic community on a peninsula in northern Greece is semi-autonomous and has for 10 centuries barred the entry of women, as they dedicated their community to the memory of Mary the Mother of God, thus their monastic community is also called the ''Garden of Mary the Theotokos''. The ban is enforced not by the Greek government by the elected council of the monastic community, which is multinational. This ban was challenged by a report that was ratified by the Europarliament yesterday. Ruling PASOK Eurodeputy Anna Karamanou, the only PASOK Eurodeputy to vote in favor of the report issued a written statement from her office in Brussels, saying ''I personally in the past as well have stood in favor of the lifting of the decision of the monks that forbids access to Mt. Athos by women.'' ''This decision was taken one thousand years ago, during the dark years of the Middle Ages in Europe and reflects the social reality of that time, when women did not have access to education, the arts or public life,'' Karamanou said. ''It is time that the monks of Athos reconsider their decision that allows privileges to one gender of human being and confronts the other (their mothers included) as a creation of a lesser god,'' Karamanou concluded. From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 11:50:59 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030117133528.00b36e70@mail.hermesnetwork.com> References: <3E252536.A89F0599@tc.umn.edu> <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030117144910.00b36e70@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Click on this link to read the original reply I received from the IOC when I first approached them with my translation: http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu:8080/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-12-01/0366.html At 01:38 PM 1/17/2003 -0500, Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote: >Interestingly enough (despite the snubs from the IOC and ATHOC), I found >that the British Olympic Association is using my translation of the HYMN, >but they have not included my name as the translator! see: >http://www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp (I emailed >them about it and I hope they remedy the situation ASAP, copyright >violation is a serious matter as I'm sure they know...) Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services Established, Fast, Reliable. Since 1998 From roilos at fas.harvard.edu Fri Jan 17 13:07:23 2003 From: roilos at fas.harvard.edu (Panagiotis Roilos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] NEWS FROM THE GEORGE SEFERIS CHAIR OF MODERN GREEK STUDIES Message-ID: I would like to draw your attention to another article on the research of Professor Dimitris Yatromanolakis on ancient Greek music. The article ("HIGH FIDELITY: TUNING IN TO THE CLASSICS") was just published in the January/February issue of the magazine ODYSSEY. Dimitris Yatromanolakis (a former Fellow in the Society of Fellows, Harvard University) is also a Research Associate at the George Seferis Chair of Modern Greek Studies. Panagiotis Roilos Panagiotis Roilos Office tel.: (617) 495-7783 Harvard University Office fax: (617) 496-6720 Department of the Classics e-mail: roilos@fas.harvard.edu Boylston Hall 2nd Floor Cambridge MA 02138 From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 13:18:49 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn [Fwd: translation] Message-ID: <3E287339.2FB26A00@hermesnetwork.com> Attached is a copy of an email I had sent to Aristide Caratzas on Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:08:50 -0400, which further establishes my claim. Sotiris Sotiropoulos -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Sotiris Sotiropoulos Subject: translation Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 00:08:50 -0400 Size: 4495 Url: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030117/2bc6e036/attachment.mht From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 14:18:11 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn References: <3E252536.A89F0599@tc.umn.edu> <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20030117144910.00b36e70@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <3E288122.4845BE72@hermesnetwork.com> This email is an observation and not necessarily a condemnation. I have not been a member of this list for very long, but here's what amazes me about this mailing list to date. I'm not sure if any others have noticed, but here it is: I have noticed that if the topic has to do with the bashing of Greece (for its purported ill treatment of so-called "minorities", or of its religious establishment, or definitions of "Greekness") there are plenty of jackdaws who are willing to pipe up and nauseate the rest of us with their IMHO clearly vitriolic harangues. When the topic has to do with something as ennobling as Olympism and a much-needed modern English translation of the Olympic Hymn, there is only one respondent (Theo Stavrou) who was kind enough to send his compliments and best wishes. One has to wonder sometimes what the motivations are for some of the subscribers to this List? I know I am wondering... Quite Disturbed, Sotiris Sotiropoulos P.S. I am truly appalled at the action of the British Olympic Association vis a vis my translation of the Olympic Hymn. Is nobody else on this list even mildly perturbed? Most especially when one considers how zealously the various official Olympic organizations champion the cause of their so-called "Intellectual Property"? For shame! Aisxos... truly. From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 14:30:30 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:03 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn References: <3E252536.A89F0599@tc.umn.edu> <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20030117144910.00b36e70@mail.hermesnetwork.com> <3E288122.4845BE72@hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <3E288406.A68F43CF@hermesnetwork.com> For posterity's sake, here's another look: The Olympic Hymn Ancient immortal spirit, pure father Of the beautiful, the great and the true, Descend, appear, and emblaze this place With the glory of your own earth and sky. In the race, the grappling, and the toss, Kindle the impulse in all noble contests, Crown with the perennial wreath, And fashion the steely and worthy body. Plains, mountains, and seas glow in your presence Like some great clear porphyrous shrine, And every nation hurries here to your temple In supplication, ancient immortal spirit. Costis Palamas (1859-1942) Translation by: Sotiris Sotiropoulos, Canada ?2001 From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 15:20:24 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Fw: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn] Message-ID: <3E288FB8.38486084@hermesnetwork.com> Attached is the email exchange I had today with the gentleman who had legally posted my poem to his website at http://fp.gnosis.f9.co.uk/olympics/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "leon" Subject: Fw: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:29:29 -0000 Size: 3571 Url: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030117/ad39ade9/attachment.mht From sarant at lu.coditel.net Fri Jan 17 15:58:44 2003 From: sarant at lu.coditel.net (Nikos Sarantakos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn In-Reply-To: <3E288122.4845BE72@hermesnetwork.com> References: <3E252536.A89F0599@tc.umn.edu> <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20030117144910.00b36e70@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030118005628.01745e30@pop3.coditel.net> At 11:18 ?? 17/1/2003, Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote: >This email is an observation and not necessarily a condemnation. > >I have not been a member of this list for very long, but here's what >amazes me about >this mailing list to date. I'm not sure if any others have noticed, but >here it is: >I have noticed that if the topic has to do with the bashing of Greece (for its >purported ill treatment of so-called "minorities", or of its religious >establishment, >or definitions of "Greekness") there are plenty of jackdaws who are >willing to pipe >up and nauseate the rest of us with their IMHO clearly vitriolic >harangues. When the >topic has to do with something as ennobling as Olympism and a much-needed >modern >English translation of the Olympic Hymn, there is only one respondent >(Theo Stavrou) >who was kind enough to send his compliments and best wishes. > >One has to wonder sometimes what the motivations are for some of the >subscribers to >this List? I know I am wondering... > >Quite Disturbed, > >Sotiris Sotiropoulos > >P.S. I am truly appalled at the action of the British Olympic Association >vis a vis >my translation of the Olympic Hymn. Is nobody else on this list even mildly >perturbed? Most especially when one considers how zealously the various >official >Olympic organizations champion the cause of their so-called "Intellectual >Property"? >For shame! Aisxos... truly. > > >_______________________________________________ >List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l I, for one, am greatly perturbed by the rest of the text written by the British Olympic Association, namely: <> ns From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 16:18:04 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn References: <3E252536.A89F0599@tc.umn.edu> <5.2.0.9.0.20030115012905.00b94a28@mail.hermesnetwork.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20030117144910.00b36e70@mail.hermesnetwork.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030118005628.01745e30@pop3.coditel.net> Message-ID: <3E289D3C.781004F4@hermesnetwork.com> Nikos Sarantakos wrote: > > I, for one, am greatly perturbed by the rest of the text written by the > British Olympic > Association, namely: > > < composed by Spirou Samara. The words were added by Costic of Greece in 1896. Oh My God! I am mortified. In my pain and rage, I hardly had eyes for anything else around my text. WOW! is about all I can say at this point. Sincerely, Sotiris Sotiropoulos From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 16:20:39 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] A Copy of the British Olympic Association's webpage as of this afternoon. Message-ID: <3E289DD7.28D6B071@hermesnetwork.com> Friday, January 17, 2003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030117/82eb3e5c/olympicmovement.html From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 16:24:04 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn- the funny thing is... Message-ID: <3E289EA3.77847F17@hermesnetwork.com> Yesterday (before I discovered the copyright violation bythe BOA), I got a call from a man who identified himself as Philip Barker of Sky (Sports) Television UK. He was interested in my translation of the Olympic Hymn, and he asked me why I thought the Hymn had been kept under wraps for so many years, between 1896 and 1957 when it was officially adopted by the IOC. We had a chat, and when we disconnected, I just chalked it up to another interested party who had run across my translation (as it's happened before). Today, I ACCIDENTALLY discovered the infringement on my Intellectual Property Rights. Go figure. Sotiris Sotiropoulos From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Fri Jan 17 16:34:57 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn- the funny thing is... References: <3E289EA3.77847F17@hermesnetwork.com> Message-ID: <3E28A131.DDCC54D4@hermesnetwork.com> Although, I must admit, beneath all the rightful and justified indignation, I am somewhat flattered. But, still not amused at all. Sotiris Sotiropoulos wrote: > Yesterday (before I discovered the copyright violation > bythe BOA), I got a call from a man who identified himself > as Philip Barker of Sky (Sports) Television UK. He was > interested in my translation of the Olympic Hymn, and he > asked me why I thought the Hymn had been kept under wraps > for so many years, between 1896 and 1957 when it was > officially adopted by the IOC. We had a chat, and when we > disconnected, I just chalked it up to another interested > party who had run across my translation (as it's happened > before). > > Today, I ACCIDENTALLY discovered the infringement on my > Intellectual Property Rights. Go figure. > > Sotiris Sotiropoulos > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From LYNGOS at aol.com Fri Jan 17 20:29:33 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn Message-ID: <1e.7a05b04.2b5a322d@aol.com> In a message dated 1/17/03 16:24:34 Pacific Standard Time, sotiris@hermesnetwork.com writes: > Oh My God! I am mortified. In my pain and rage, I hardly had eyes for > anything > else around my text. WOW! is about all I can say at this point. > > Sincerely, > > Sotiris Sotiropoulos > Dear Sotiris There is only one thing that hurts the usurpers of your work. Money.........Money.........and more Money........................ Go for it, PLAGIARISM should be punished, go for it! Regards to all...............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030117/fbcc4d7a/attachment.html From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Fri Jan 17 09:30:02 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Message-ID: <3E283D99.EA248E43@bellatlantic.net> The purpose of my original message was to cast reasonable doubt about to the preconceived notion according to which the historical usage of a Slavonic idiom within the geographical boundaries of historical Macedonia constitutes a criterion of either a Bulgarian or Macedonian ethnicity or national identity. To this end, I wish to reiterate the view that "the distinct Slavic dialect spoken in certain villages in Greek Macedonia does not necessarily certify the existence of an ethnic minority" [Vlasidis and Karakostanoglou http://www.abest.com/~angelos/Vlasidis.htm]. The designation ?Slav-speaking Macedonian? carries important political implications, for it may be construed as tantamount to the existence of a ?(Slavo)macedonian? ethnic minority in the present-day northern Greek province of Macedonia. It is an indisputable fact that most Greek Macedonians were bilingual (Greek and Slav-speaking), multilingual (Greek, Vlach, Albanian and Slav-speaking), or in many instances, were solely Slav-speaking. Historically, these Greek Macedonians were adherents of the Patriarchate of Constantinople (?patriarchists?) and were comprised of Graekoi/Romioi, Vlachs/ Arm?ni, Arvanitovlachs, Sarakatchans, and subjects of presumed Bulgarian ancestry but with overt Greek orientation (Grecomans, ?Grkmani?) who were speakers of a Slavonic-based idiom. It is also an indisputable fact that during the four-year Greek-Bulgarian conflict over Macedonia, in many areas the Greek forces were comprised predominantly, if not exclusively, of Slav-and Vlach-speaking militia. Because of their devotion to the Greek cause, the Bulgarians coined to these subjects the pejorative term 'Grekomans' (?Grkmani?), meaning, fanatical Greeks. By the same token, as British historian Douglas Dakin asserts, yet another crucial factor for the Greek success rests with the fact that the Greeks were fighting in an area in which the population was favourably-disposed and even related to them. A population with a profound devotion to the Ecumenical Patriarchate and express Greek identity even though was not -for the most part- Greek-speaking. Historically, Greek identity has been based entirely on consciousness and loyalty to the Mother Church (Ecumenical Patriarchate), disregarding linguistic attributes and/or racial/tribal progenitors (viz. phyletism). In 1872, the Holy Synod issued a definitive condemnation of the sin [heresy] of phyletism, saying, "We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is, racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds, and dissensions within the Church of Christ..." [Excerpt from the address by His Holiness The Ecumenical Patriarch Vartholomaios I, entitled "MNEMOSYNE AND THE CHILDREN OF MEMORY" (British Museum, London, 12.XI.1993) ] The national ?cleavages? and ?awakenings? of the 19th century Balkans lead to the fragmentation, but not the ultimate devastation of the Rum millet. Whereas it may be argued that the Kingdom of Greece (Hellas) was ostensibly, a ?national construct? of the 19th century, the core Greek consciousness and identity remained deeply rooted in the centuries? old tradition of Romiosyni and the ?Rum millet?. [In passing, ii is noteworthy that in contrast to the ?successful? establishment of a Bulgar millet, the creation of a Vlach millet was largely abortive? and for a good reason. According to Koukoudis, "Even after a millet-i-ullah (a Vlach (not ?Romanian?) administrative division), was recognised in 1905, the Vlachs didn?t hasten to make the most of the opportunity the Ottoman authorities had offered them, as the Bulgarians had exploited similar opportunities in the past. This was because most of the leaders of the local Vlach communities traditionally embraced the ?Hellenic idea? and identified their own progress with that of the still tiny Greece. Romanian propaganda failed to gain a foothold among the Vlachs of Eastern Macedonia, for instance, whether settled or nomadic, the reason being that the local communities all recognised the Vlachs as fundamentally modern Greeks." [Excerpts from Asterios Koukoudis? book entitled ?Studies on the Vlachs. 2nd Vol. (Greek edition)- The Olympos and Meglena Vlachs? Zitros Publications: Thessaloniki, 2001] -- Ethnic group(s) or parties with national affiliations? According to Gounaris, "The existence of parties with national affiliations instead of ethnic groups within the Christians of Macedonia and the undeniable fact that around 1900 national loyalties as a rule were not to be taken for granted puts the following vital question: whether in the years preceding nationalism or under the thin layer of nationalism the various Christian linguistic groups (Greek-, Vlach-, Albanian- and Slav-speakers) corresponded to different ethnic groups. In 1903 Noel Brailsford, a British journalist, met in Ochrid (medieval Achris), near the Byzantine ruins, a group of Slav-speaking village boys. When he asked them whether they knew who had built those ancient constructions they replied: `The free men, our ancestors'. `Were they Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks or Turks?' asked the journalist. The boys responded: `No they were not Turks, they were Christians'. If the boys' answer represents an impartial or prenationalistic view, then it is most likely that some illiterate, non Greek-speaking peasant members of the Rumi-imillet in Macedonia (certainly not many amongst the fighting bandsmen), had treasured their previous cultural loyalties as late as the early twentieth century. In spite of all the ill digested national ideologies, they had been and some still were Romii (Romans) or Rum (terms which had a strong religious connotation), followers of the Ecumenical Patriarch, members of the Genos. This was a notion, which in many parts (some Macedonian regions included) had not yet developed into that of a modern national identity. They seemed to draw from an Eastern-Orthodox Byzantine cultural tradition, which had amalgamated a variety of regional and social subcultures, myths and memories, symbols and values. A tradition, which had always disregarded linguistic differences and had created a common mentality based on shared attitudes towards time, space, Muslim oppressors (i.e. the Turks), and `civilized' Europeans. In a troubled region where romantic nationalism was re-discovering and re-describing the communal past, their actions and bloody conflicts were mostly determined by cleavages which reflected real and vital interests, basically the allocation of material resources. At least for the time being some Orthodox Christian rayas in Macedonia, Thrace, and probably in other parts in the Sultan's domains had little, if any, concern for any further ethnic distinctions. " [Excerpts from Basil C. Gounaris. Social cleavages and national "awakening" in Ottoman Macedonia. East European Quarterly 1995; 29:409-426] As for Kontogiannis? analysis, it has the imprinting of contemporary British ethnography, but provides an interesting and relevant piece of ?historiography? reflecting a Greek diplomat?s bookish interpretation of ?nationality? and/or ?ethnicity?. It would be conjectural though, to suggest that Kontogiannis? perspective underlie a ?broader? tactical approach of the then Greek government intended to counter Bulgarian demographic claims. Moreover, in my view, Kontogiannis? account falls far short of establishing a tangible case for a ?Macedonian? national awakening, let alone a distinct ?Macedonian? ethnic identity. As such, it should be viewed circumspectly within the appropriate temporospatial context [viz. propaganda war between Bulgaria and Greece over ?shifting? population demographics in the geographic territory of historical Macedonia on the dawn of the 20th century]. A propos to language, while it was undoubtedly one of the key factors in the molding of ?national consciousness? narrative in the emerging Balkan nations, in my view, language per se should NOT be construed as an a priori criterion of ethnic origin or ?differentiation? in the prenationalistic period [vide infra]. In closing, I should like to draw attention to three main points: (1) The paradigms of Slav-speaking Patriarchists, including the Grecomans (Greek adherents of putative Bulgarian origin) lend credence to Gounaris? hypothesis regarding existence of parties with national affiliations instead of ethnic groups within the Christians of Macedonia; (2) the pivotal contribution of the centuries? old Christian Orthodox Rum millet in the shaping of Modern Greek identity in Macedonia should not be trivialized; and (3) The distinct Slavonic idiom/dialect spoken in Greek Macedonia is neither a signature of ?ethnic origin? or national orientation, nor does it ?necessarily certify the existence of an ethnic minority.? "H glwssa esti gnwrisma ti lian epousiwdes kai sfaleron, ef?ou ouden dikaiwma e8emeliw8h" [Diafwtistikh Epitroph Oikoumenikou Patriarxeiou <> M. Gedewn, Eggrafa?, o.p., s. 64-65] Respectfully submitted, Christos D. Katsetos Tasos Kostopulos wrote: > [Deleted for reasons of overloading] > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christos D. Katsetos > To: Tasos Kostopulos > Cc: MGSA-L@uci.edu > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 5:07 PM > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia > > ----[Deleted for reasons of over-loading] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030118/8e802ca9/attachment.html From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Sat Jan 18 12:02:10 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] [Fwd: Olympic Anthem] Message-ID: <3E29B2C2.D7E248AF@hermesnetwork.com> A copy of the correspondence between myself and the IOC Legal Department re: my translation of the Olympic Hymn from Nov. 2001. For the public record. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Marianne Chappuis Subject: Re: Olympic Anthem Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:16:00 +0100 Size: 2143 Url: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030118/72fc4cc3/attachment.mht From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Sat Jan 18 16:45:11 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] IOC Olympic Hymn Search Results Message-ID: <3E29F516.87810CCA@hermesnetwork.com> A search in Google for the terms "IOC Olmpic Hymn" brings about the following number one ranking result: http://www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp Try it at http://google.com Also, at Altavista, the number two spot for a search on the exact same terms goes to (you guessed it!): http://www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp Number 7 spot at Overture.com and number 1 at yahoo.com. Results may vary slightly for others, but I'm thinking it's pretty constant. Sotiris Sotiropoulos From ssm at panafonet.gr Sun Jan 19 03:19:08 2003 From: ssm at panafonet.gr (Simeon Magliveras) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <001001c2bfac$a6e830b0$2d22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> I think you have hit to the core of contemporary GreeK National identity. Clearly Greek Natioanlism was not tied to Language but Religion. Recently language plays a greater role but many communities of non-Macadonian Greece also spoke other languages. Not until the second half of the last century has language been a characteristic of natioanl identity. For almost 2000 years Greece was part of different empires with no manmade boarders So that an individual speaking Vlach (for example) could travel from one part of the empire to the other. This is why we find different speaking enclaves all over Greece and post Ottoman/Roman (East or West) Empires. In the community where i have done my study there was some movement of people even in the prewar 20th C from linguistic areas outside the national boarders. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030119/d54c69ee/attachment.html From ajplacas at yahoo.com Sun Jan 19 04:09:35 2003 From: ajplacas at yahoo.com (Aimee Placas) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] bibliography query (right along with the minorities in Greece thread) Message-ID: <20030119120935.58032.qmail@web10702.mail.yahoo.com> Dear all, I have a student doing an independent research project on muslim minorities in Greece. She's a little vague at this point, just starting out, but I believe she's going to be looking at this newer wave of immigrants (focusing perhaps on those coming from the middle east and north africa, but her reading material could treat minorities more broadly). Does anyone have any recommendations for articles or books for her? She does read Greek, and she's studying in Athens this semester. Your help is much appreciated! Sincerely, Aimee Placas __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 18 19:13:37 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:04 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <001001c2bfac$a6e830b0$2d22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> Message-ID: <3E2A17E1.18ECB783@bellatlantic.net> Simeon Magliveras wrote: > I think you have hit to the core of contemporary GreeK National > identity. Clearly Greek Natioanlism was not tied to Language but > Religion. Recently language plays a greater role but many communities > of non-Macadonian Greece also spoke other languages. Not until the > second half of the last century has language been a characteristic of > natioanl identity. For almost 2000 years Greece was part of different > empires with no manmade boarders So that an individual speaking Vlach > (for example) could travel from one part of the empire to the other. > This is why we find different speaking enclaves all over Greece and > post Ottoman/Roman (East or West) Empires. In the community where i > have done my study there was some movement of people even in the > prewar 20th C from linguistic areas outside the national boarders. Indeed, in many historical paradigms, religion and associated spiritual values and cultural traditions would appear to be more significant than language per se in determining ethnic identity. In this regard, I would like to present two illustrative, albeit divergent, cases of ?ethnic? Greeks in Ottoman Asia Minor. On one hand there is the example of *Karamanlides*, a term initially intended to define the turkophone Christian Orthodox population of the region of Anatolia known as 'Karamania', but which term was later applied to all Turkish speaking members of the Rum millet in Asia Minor. The ?original? Karamanlides may be viewed as Greeks (Rhomaioi/Rum) loyal to the Patriarchate of Constantinople, living in the Anatolian provinces of Pamphylia, Isavria, Cappadokia, Kilikea and Lycaonia (collectively referred to as the Karamania region) who did not succumb to Islamic conversion but were linguistically assimilated under Ottoman occupation. [The predominantly (albeit not exclusively) religious literature developed by the Turkish-speaking Rum Orthodox of the Karamania region was written in Turkish with Greek letter inscriptions. According to the early 20th century British linguist, Dockins, three distinct dialects were used, i.e. those of Cappadokia, Silly and Farasa.] In contrast to Karamanlides, who were, no doubt, the vehicle of Greek/Rum consciousness and identity in Anatolia, the exact opposite was true with regard to a subpopulation of Greek speaking Muslims in the the north-east of Asia Minor, near the Black Sea shores. There exists, to this day, a distinctive community that speaks an archaic variety of Greek. The people of this community are largely of putative Greek extraction, but they have been devout Muslims for centuries, they were not subject to population exchanges in the framework of the Lausanne Treaty, and manifestly regard themselves as Turks. Thus, for all intents and purposes, the members of this community are assimilated into Turkish society and culture. They are Turkish. The so-called Pontus (Pontos) Muslims, also referred to by some as "Secret Christians" [?which may well be more of a wishful thinking rather than euphemism?] are clustered near the shore of the Black Sea, in the region known as Pontus. They are Sunni Muslims. Their largest concentration is in 5-6 village enclaves in Tonya, Trabzon and in ~50 villages in the valley Yukari Solakli. In addition, there are at least two villages established by the immigrants at Sakarya en route to The City (Constantinople/Istanbul). Whether the Greek speaking Pontus? Muslims are in fact, converted Christians (probable) or not, one conclusion emerges (based at least on the temporal and spatial context of this ethnographic paradigm): Language by itself cannot be construed as an a priori signature of national/ethnic identity AND that religion (and related spiritual values and cultural tradition, known in Greek as Parakatatheke / Parakataqhkh) would appear to be a more tangible defining factors by far. This observation lends credence to the diachronic and timeless Patriarchal definition of "Genos" and "Romiosyni" that is based solely on ?consciousness? and loyalty to the Mother Church regardless of genealogical/racial or linguistic correlates. Respectfully submitted, Christos D. Katsetos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030119/81539ddc/attachment.html From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Sun Jan 19 11:49:47 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn [continued] Message-ID: <3E2B015B.682A5073@hermesnetwork.com> Using an interesting facility called "The Wayback Machine" I have found the following regarding the British Olympic Association's webpages (specifically the contents of the page now found at: http://www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp that is, the page where they are currently displaying my uncredited translation of Costis Palamas' Olympic Hymn). Please go here to see what I mean: http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp The first archived instance of the web page in question is from Jul 14, 2001, and in the section "Olympic Hymn" it contains a DIFFERENT translation from the one currently displayed (i.e. my own). The second available archive instance is from Aug 05, 2001 and again, it does not contain my version of the translation but rather, it contains the same one as the preceeding date. On Aug. 6, 2001 I sent the following message (containing my translation) to the Classics-L academic list: http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu:8080/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-09-01/0217.html As well, I have a copy of an email I sent to Isidoros at ioniccentre@hol.gr from Aug 6, 2001 which contains my translation. Also, on Aug. 7, 2001 I sent a digitally certified email to the publisher Aristide Caratzas (as mentioned in my previous email) which contained my translation. On Aug. 8, 2001 I responded onlist on Classics-L to questions about my translation from Dr. Rudolph Masciantonio. The third referenced copy from the "Wayback Machine" archive of the same BOA web page from Oct 31, 2001 is unavailable. The fourth archived instance of the same web page is from Feb 22, 2002, and it contains MY translation (without any credit to myself)! So, my transltion has been on their web site for about 1 year, for sure. They replaced a previous translation with my own. How do you like that? Sotiris Sotiropoulos From C.Buhayer at westminster.ac.uk Sun Jan 19 12:32:06 2003 From: C.Buhayer at westminster.ac.uk (C.Buhayer@westminster.ac.uk) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] 'Kadare'-'Greek wedding' prejudice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1043008326.3e2b0b46a8b14@webmail.wmin.ac.uk> This is a thank you for her useful input and a query to Joan Friedberg who wrote: > The film..."Behind the Sun" produced by Arthur Cohn [is] based > on the short novel "Broken April" by Kadare. [Arthur Cohn told Joan that] he moved the setting from Albania to Brazil [because] [h]e felt the logistics of shooting a film in Albania would be nearly impossible... Observation by CB: As quoted by JF, Arthur Cohn does not persuade; the Albanians should have been credit where credit is dure, Cohn could have safely shot the film, and with Albanian extras, in northern Greece or even in 'Republica Makedonija'. His excuse sounds as racially prejudiced as the attempt by the film moguls to try an film 'My big fat Greek wedding' as a non-Greek wedding. After all, the award winning film 'Before the Rain' by the Macedonian film maker Milcho Manchevski concerned a clash between SlavMacedonians and AlbanianMacedonians; it was shot in 'Makedonija' and won an Oscar for the Best Foreign Language Film in 1995, and won the Brasilian Audience Award. This took place well before Macedonia hit the headlines. Now, in 2003, no can claim not to have heard of th From ldanfort at abacus.bates.edu Sun Jan 19 12:41:24 2003 From: ldanfort at abacus.bates.edu (Loring Danforth) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia (fwd) Message-ID: <200301192041.h0JKfO3K640769@a5198.bates.edu> > I would like to comment briefly on two statements that were made > recently in the discussion of minorities in Greece, both of which are > extreme oversimplifications of complicated issues. > > > The Ottoman statistics almost always referred to what we call ethnic groups,= > > =20 > > matter of fact the word millet means "ethnicity, people." > > Millets cannot be easily equated with ethnic groups. Millets were based on > religious identities. In some cases religion is a key feature in > definitions of ethnic groups, but in others language or some other trait > is key. In some cases there are no cultural characteristics that > distinguish between ethnic groups. All we have are assertions by people > that they belong to different groups. Brothers can belong to different > ethnic groups. > > > In other words after 1877 Macedonians=3DGreeks. > > This comment ignores what is by now a large body of scholarship on the > Macedonian issue that conclusively demonstrates the variety of meanings > the term "Macedonian" has had over the past 130 years. > > While I am delighted to see this issue being discussed again on the MGSA > list, it is disappointing to see some of the same misunderstandings being > repeated. > > > Loring M. Danforth > > Bates College > Lewiston, Maine 04240 > > ldanfort@bates.edu > From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Sun Jan 19 02:31:22 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Re: Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <001001c2bfac$a6e830b0$2d22f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> <3E2A17E1.18ECB783@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <3E2A7E79.36941725@bellatlantic.net> ERRATUM: (Re. 'Dockins' - vide infra) Richard McGillvray Dawkins _Modern Greek in Asia Minor, Cambridge University Press, 1916, pp. 59, 144_ [also see Dawkins, R.M. _Modern Greek Folktales, Greenwood Publishing Co., 1974_] C.D.K. "Christos D. Katsetos" wrote: > > > Simeon Magliveras wrote: > >> I think you have hit to the core of contemporary GreeK National >> identity. Clearly Greek Natioanlism was not tied to Language but >> Religion. Recently language plays a greater role but many >> communities of non-Macadonian Greece also spoke other languages. Not >> until the second half of the last century has language been a >> characteristic of natioanl identity. For almost 2000 years Greece >> was part of different empires with no manmade boarders So that an >> individual speaking Vlach (for example) could travel from one part >> of the empire to the other. This is why we find different speaking >> enclaves all over Greece and post Ottoman/Roman (East or West) >> Empires. In the community where i have done my study there was some >> movement of people even in the prewar 20th C from linguistic areas >> outside the national boarders. > > > > > Indeed, in many historical paradigms, religion and associated > spiritual values and cultural traditions would appear to be more > significant than language per se in determining ethnic identity. In > this regard, I would like to present two illustrative, albeit > divergent, cases of ?ethnic? Greeks in Ottoman Asia Minor. > > On one hand there is the example of *Karamanlides*, a term initially > intended to define the turkophone Christian Orthodox population of the > region of Anatolia known as 'Karamania', but which term was later > applied to all Turkish speaking members of the Rum millet in Asia > Minor. > > The ?original? Karamanlides may be viewed as Greeks (Rhomaioi/Rum) > loyal to the Patriarchate of Constantinople, living in the Anatolian > provinces of Pamphylia, Isavria, Cappadokia, Kilikea and Lycaonia > (collectively referred to as the Karamania region) who did not succumb > to Islamic conversion but were linguistically assimilated under > Ottoman occupation. > > [The predominantly (albeit not exclusively) religious literature > developed by the Turkish-speaking Rum Orthodox of the Karamania region > was written in Turkish with Greek letter inscriptions. According to > the early 20th century British linguist, Dockins, three distinct > dialects were used, i.e. those of Cappadokia, Silly and Farasa.] > > In contrast to Karamanlides, who were, no doubt, the vehicle of > Greek/Rum consciousness and identity in Anatolia, the exact opposite > was true with regard to a subpopulation of Greek speaking Muslims in > the the north-east of Asia Minor, near the Black Sea shores. > > There exists, to this day, a distinctive community that speaks an > archaic variety of Greek. The people of this community are largely of > putative Greek extraction, but they have been devout Muslims for > centuries, they were not subject to population exchanges in the > framework of the Lausanne Treaty, and manifestly regard themselves as > Turks. Thus, for all intents and purposes, the members of this > community are assimilated into Turkish society and culture. They are > Turkish. > > The so-called Pontus (Pontos) Muslims, also referred to by some as > "Secret Christians" [?which may well be more of a wishful thinking > rather than euphemism?] are clustered near the shore of the Black Sea, > in the region known as Pontus. They are Sunni Muslims. Their largest > concentration is in 5-6 village enclaves in Tonya, Trabzon and in ~50 > villages in the valley Yukari Solakli. In addition, there are at least > two villages established by the immigrants at Sakarya en route to The > City (Constantinople/Istanbul). > > Whether the Greek speaking Pontus? Muslims are in fact, converted > Christians (probable) or not, one conclusion emerges (based at least > on the temporal and spatial context of this ethnographic paradigm): > Language by itself cannot be construed as an a priori signature of > national/ethnic identity AND that religion (and related spiritual > values and cultural tradition, known in Greek as Parakatatheke / > Parakataqhkh) would appear to be a more tangible defining factors by > far. > > This observation lends credence to the diachronic and timeless > Patriarchal definition of "Genos" and "Romiosyni" that is based solely > on ?consciousness? and loyalty to the Mother Church regardless of > genealogical/racial or linguistic correlates. > > Respectfully submitted, > > Christos D. Katsetos > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030119/572335e1/attachment.html From demotika at earthlink.net Sun Jan 19 14:53:29 2003 From: demotika at earthlink.net (Joan Friedberg) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] 'Kadare'-'Greek wedding' prejudice Message-ID: <4120031019225329750@earthlink.net> Dear C. Buhayer, Yes, I agree with you. He took the story out of its context and placed it in a different one. That was his decision. I believe he collaborated with someone who has connections in Brazil, so there were other possible reasons for changing the locale. > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Cc: > Date: 1/19/03 3:32:06 PM > Subject: [MGSA-L] 'Kadare'-'Greek wedding' prejudice > > This is a thank you for her useful input and a query to Joan Friedberg who > wrote: > > > The film..."Behind the Sun" produced by Arthur Cohn [is] based > > on the short novel "Broken April" by Kadare. [Arthur Cohn told Joan that] he > moved the setting from Albania to Brazil [because] [h]e felt the logistics of > shooting a film in Albania would be nearly impossible... > > Observation by CB: > > As quoted by JF, Arthur Cohn does not persuade; the Albanians should have been > credit where credit is dure, Cohn could have safely shot the film, and with > Albanian extras, in northern Greece or even in 'Republica Makedonija'... From tkostop at enet.gr Mon Jan 20 06:16:05 2003 From: tkostop at enet.gr (Tasos Kostopulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E283D99.EA248E43@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <00ae01c2c08e$78744510$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Just a question: (taking into consideration that the terminology used is never innocent of implicit meanings): slavonic "idiom" and slavic "dialect" of which language? ----- Original Message ----- From: Christos D. Katsetos To: Tasos Kostopulos Cc: MGSA-L@uci.edu Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia The purpose of my original message was to cast reasonable doubt about to the preconceived notion according to which the historical usage of a Slavonic idiom within the geographical boundaries of historical Macedonia constitutes a criterion of either a Bulgarian or Macedonian ethnicity or national identity. To this end, I wish to reiterate the view that "the distinct Slavic dialect spoken in certain villages in Greek Macedonia does not necessarily certify the existence of an ethnic minority" [Vlasidis and Karakostanoglou http://www.abest.com/~angelos/Vlasidis.htm]. The designation 'Slav-speaking Macedonian' carries important political implications, for it may be construed as tantamount to the existence of a '(Slavo)macedonian' ethnic minority in the present-day northern Greek province of Mac] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/8acf18c5/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Mon Jan 20 08:10:41 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <1d1.511e3a.2b5d7981@aol.com> In a message dated 1/20/03 06:41:59 Pacific Standard Time, tkostop@enet.gr writes: > > Just a question: > > (taking into consideration that the terminology used is never innocent of > implicit meanings): > > slavonic "idiom" and slavic "dialect" of which language? > But of course the Slav language that is connected with the present F.Y.R.O.M. and ex-Federative Republic of Skopje. A finalized version of it, still does not exist, since F.Y.R.O.M. attempts to get rif of all the "Serbianism", "Croatianism" as well as "Bulgarianism" in its language. The strange thing is however that such "Macedonian" language arised only after August the 2nd 1944, when the Vardaska Banovina eparchy of the Jugoslavian federation was re-named as.........Republic of "Macedonia". Of course the Serbs and Croats laugh at such assertion, while the Bulgars are declaring it, as their own Ethnic Bulgarian language. Such Ethnic Bulgarian language was created after the fusion, between the pro-Cyrillc literature (Grammatologia), of the Bulgars and the Slavs (Emil Georghiev- Kiril I Metodij I Razvitieto Na Balgarskata Kultura". No mention by Evliya Celebi the famous traveller of the 17th century either in his book "Tarih-i Seyyah" (Travelling diary) which was translated in the Greek language by Vasilis Dimitriadis under the title of "The Central and Western Macedonia according to Evliya Celebi). In it, Celebi refering to the Churches of Skopia, today's capital of F.Y.R.O.M., mentions those of the "Armenians" the "Hellenes" (Rum), the "Bulgars", the "Serbs" the "Latins", and the absence of Churches for the "Franks" the "Hungarians", and the "Austrians". Strangely enough, in the capital of todays "Macedonia" there is not mention about "Macedonians", "Macedonian" language, people, Ethnicity. Nothing! Now, within this language, as very well as, our professor of Linguistics Nicholas P. Andriotis, Universtity of Thessaloniki, notes in his book "The Federative Republic of Skopje and its Language", Athens 1966, there are differences of this language "in relation to the ancient Slav language" (page 13), similarities with the Serbian language (page 14), and common features with the Bulgarian language" (page 15). And farther down on page 18: "" ..........but at least differences as substantial as those which exist between particularly related languages, as French and Italian for instance, or German and Swedish, or Russian and Bulgarian, then the linguistic idiom spoken in Skopje cannot possibly be called a language on its own right. Only if, for political expediency, in order to provide a basis for an autonomous State, the science of linguistics were to be revised and bew definitions of the term "language" devised, so that the latter could be taken to mean much smaller and insignificant differences between related linguistic forms, only then could the Slav idiom of the State of Skopje be called a language. And so, one must search for the Mother-Language of such "slavonic "idiom" and slavic "dialect" What it was and is? Clearly the BULGARIAN one, as is the official position of the Bulgarian goverment, no matter the attempted changes by Skopje. And those Vardarskan Banovinians who were re-baptized as "Macedonians" the night of August the 2nd 1944 by Tito, they.........they know it as well. Regards to all...............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/3c5265ce/attachment.html From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Mon Jan 20 09:58:51 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030120124853.00b68ae0@mail.hermesnetwork.com> I have spoken with my legal counsel, and I am waiting to hear from the British Olympic Association. I have edited my Complaint and reproduced it below. To persons of conscience everywhere, I respectfully request that you distribute the following material to anybody anywhere who might be interested in it: January 20, 2003 Without Prejudice. A couple of years ago I translated the Olympic Hymn by Costis Palamas from Greek to English. I thought the translation was rather good, even had some compliments. So, I sent the Athens Olympics Organizing Committee a copy. I did not hear back from them. Then, I contacted the IOC, they did respond after a few months. A Marienne Chappuis from their Legal Department told me that the IOC was not currently in need of an updated translation of the Olympic Hymn. Her exact words were "This is in follow-up to your correspondence to the IOC with respect to the new translation from Greek into English that you propose for the Olympic Anthem. Please note that, although the IOC has studied with much interest your proposal, the IOC still considers that the Official Translation of the Olympic Anthem is the one that was adopted in 1957." [I posted her exact initial message to an academic Classics list http//omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu8080/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-12-01/0366.html plus I have copies of her messages] When I questioned her on what criteria the decision had been based, she repeated herself and didn't provide me with any details. Well, my translation with full credits can be found online at http//fp.gnosis.f9.co.uk/olympics/ (scroll to just before the bottom of that page or simply click on the anchor link to the Official Olympic Anthem (Greek & English) The person who posted it on that page is completely unknown to me, I've never met them. They borrowed the translation, with my permission, from a web page I maintain at http//greekwisdom.com/olympichymn.html Interestingly enough (despite the snubs from the IOC and ATHOC), yesterday [Friday, January 17, 2003], BY ACCIDENT I discovered that the British Olympic Association is currently using my translation of the OLYMPIC HYMN on their web site (and who knows where else!), but they have NOT included my name as the translator, nor was I even informed! To see the poem http//www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp [about 2/3 of the way down the page.] One compelling proof that the translation belongs to me is a message I sent to the Classics-L mailing list which is docuemented here http//omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-09-01/0217.html and another signed with a digital certificate on Aug 7, 2001 which contains a copy of my original translation and which I subsequently modified only very slightly (changed the word "of" to "in" and I removed an "and" etc.) but it is recognizably my translation in its pre-final form. [A copy of the original digitally certified message containing the poem that I had sent to the publisher Aristide Caratzas on Aug 21, 2001 regarding my translation can be viewed at https//maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2003-January/001347.html The other gentleman, one Leon Leonidou, who had legally posted my translation to his website with my permission (mentioned above http//fp.gnosis.f9.co.uk/olympics/) had this to say when I sent him an email yesterday apprising him of the situation ---------------- Dear Sotiris I had a look at their website and the translation they have there it is indeed your translation. I can confirm what happened if I am asked to do so. This is unbelievable!!! Regards Leon Leonidou ----------------- A further example of evidence that it is my translation is the explanation I gave about my work when questioned about the translation after I had posted it to the Classics-L list on Wed Aug 08 2001 http//omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu8080/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-09-01/0287.html Now, yesterday (i.e. Friday, January 17, 2003, before I discovered the copyright violation by the BOA), I got a call from a man who identified himself as Philip Barker of Sky (Sports) Television UK. He was interested in my translation of the Olympic Hymn, and he asked me why I thought the Hymn had been kept in obscurity for so many years, between 1896 and 1957 when it was officially adopted by the IOC. We had a chat, and when we disconnected, I just chalked it up to another interested party who had run across my translation (as it's happened before). Now, I am truly appalled at the action of the British Olympic Association vis a vis my translation of the Olympic Hymn. Most especially when one considers how zealously the various official Olympic organizations champion the cause of their Intellectual Property. Using an interesting facility called "The Wayback Machine" I have discovered the following regarding the British Olympic Association's webpages (specifically the contents of the page now found at http//www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp that is, the page where they are currently displaying my uncredited translation of Costis Palamas' Olympic Hymn). Please go here to see what I mean http//web.archive.org/web/*/www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp The first archived instance of the web page in question is from Jul 14, 2001, and in the section "Olympic Hymn" it contains a different translation from the one currently displayed (i.e. my own). See http//web.archive.org/web/20010714052425/http//www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp The second available archive instance is from Aug 05, 2001 and again, it does not contain my version of the translation but rather, it contains the same one as the preceeding date. See http//web.archive.org/web/20010805185822/http//www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp On Aug. 6, 2001 I sent the following message (containing my translation) to the Classics-L academic list http//omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu8080/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-09-01/0217.html As well, I have a copy of an email I sent to Mr. Isidoros at ioniccentre@hol.gr from Aug 6, 2001 which contains my translation. Also, on Aug. 7, 2001 I sent a digitally certified email to the publisher Aristide Caratzas (as mentioned in my previous email) which contained my translation. On Aug. 8, 2001 I responded onlist on Classics-L to questions about my translation from Dr. Rudolph Masciantonio. The third referenced copy from the "Wayback Machine" archive of the same BOA web page from Oct 31, 2001 is unavailable. See http//web.archive.org/web/20011031121141/http//www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp The fourth archived instance of the same web page is from Feb 22, 2002, and it contains MY translation (without any credit to myself)! See http//web.archive.org/web/20020222234751/http//www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp So, my translation has been on their web site for about 1 year, for sure. They replaced a previous translation with my own and didn't ask for my permission, nor did they properly identify my Interest in the Material. What concerns me further is that if one does a Google or Yahoo or Altavista search on the terms "IOC Olympic Hymn", you will see that the number one or two ranking spots take you to my uncredited translation on *their* page. This means that their site has achieved considerable search penetration and propagation and my rights as a producer have certainly been violated. Repeatedly, to be sure. I call on the British Olympic Association to right the wrong they have done to me. If you would like to express your support for my Complaint, please contact the British Olympic Association at boa@boa.org.uk Very Sincerely, Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services Established, Fast, Reliable. Since 199 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/a9dd68be/attachment.html From ssm at panafonet.gr Mon Jan 20 14:15:23 2003 From: ssm at panafonet.gr (Simeon Magliveras) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:05 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <001a01c2c0d1$6e80fc40$a422f9d5@simoswmtjisc08> The question I would like to pose is, weather the Christian identity is in opposition to the Ottoman identity in the formation of the Christian Balkan states or weather is only a result of Romosini. Sugarman mentions that Arvanites also played a very strong role in the formation of the Albanian national sense. Because their state is could not be religiously based Romosini plays little role in the Albanian sense of nation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030121/4be8e760/attachment.html From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 20 01:57:30 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E283D99.EA248E43@bellatlantic.net> <00ae01c2c08e$78744510$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> Message-ID: <3E2BC80B.34C0A0F@bellatlantic.net> Tasos Kostopulos wrote: > Just a question: (taking into consideration that the terminology used > is never innocent of implicit meanings): slavonic "idiom" and slavic > "dialect" of which language? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christos D. Katsetos > To: Tasos Kostopulos > Cc: MGSA-L@uci.edu > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 7:30 PM > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia > > > > > In my view, a balanced and plausible interpretation in this regard is traceable to the 1925 report by O?Mologni, the linguist specialist designate of the League of Nations a propos to the "Abeceder Primer". In his report entitled "Memorandum Regarding the Introduction by the Greek Government into the Schools of Macedonia of the Abecedar Enclosed" O?Mologni offers the following assessment: _ (a) There is not a single Macedonian dialect, (b) the Macedonian dialects are equally akin to both Serbian and to Bulgarian, (c) being "racially" a Bulgarian of Macedonia does not necessarily suggest that one's mother tongue is Bulgarian--it could be Greek or even Turkish, (d) Greece opted for the local dialects in order to bypass the Serbo-Bulgarian linguistic quarrel and to consolidate its diplomatic grip on Macedonia, and (e) the linguistic debate in Macedonia is related to various political objectives._ [_Archives de la Soci?t? des Nations, R.1695 (3), Dossier No. 39349, Doc. No. 47674, "Minorit?s bulgares en Gr?ce," 9 December 1925_.] For the benefit of the general readers, the "Abeceder Primer" was a pragmatic attempt by the Greek government to deal with the issue of slavonic dialect(s) in Greek Macedonia during the inter war years. A balanced and sober review on the subject can be found in the scholarly treatise by Iakovos D. Michailidis _ Minority Rights and Educational Problems in Greek Inter war Macedonia: The Case of the Primer "Abecedar" _ Journal of Modern Greek Studies 14.2 (1996) 329-343 http://www.press.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_modern_greek_studies/v014TL/14.2michailidis.html Yet, as attested by the response of the local populace in Amyntaion (near Florina ? NW Greek Macedonia), the very notion of the introduction of a ?Slavic language primer? was met by massive demonstrations by both Slavic- and Greek speakers and the dispatch of following resolution to the Greek Foreign Ministry: [From Michailidis, I.D., Journal of Modern Greek Studies 14.2 (1996) 329-343] "On 1 February, Slavic speakers and Greek speakers alike joined in a demonstration in Amyntaion. The following resolution was drawn up and telegraphed to the Foreign Ministry: All the inhabitants and the parents of students attending the schools of Sorovic [now Amyntaion], having been informed by our children about the introduction of the Slavic idiom and sharing their just exasperation and protest regarding the introduction to schools of an unwanted language, we have gathered willingly and spontaneously today in exasperation and we unanimously express our pain for our Government's unholy act to introduce an unwanted linguistic idiom. We have voted: We pray that our Government will transmit to the League of Nations our and our children's strong protest against the grave insult to our national pride and consciousness. We confirm our decision to support until death our fathers' institutions and the pure Greek tradition of Alexander the Great. We declare a bloody war against any violent and illiberal plot against our Greek mother tongue. We reject the instruction of the Macedono-Slavic dialect in schools, reviving memories of violence, fear, terror, gallows--i.e., the traditional means of Bulgarian practice. We appoint a Committee consisted of Mr. Hatzitryfonos, Mr. I. Traikou, Mr. N. Hatzimitsev, and D. Petro Dine and we demand that this resolution be submitted by telegram to the Prime Minister and to the League of Nations. (Efimeris ton Valkanion, 2 February 1926)" With this in mind, may I reiterate that the purpose of my original posts was to cast reasonable doubt on the preconceived and contestable notion according to which the usage of a variant Slavonic based idiom/dialect (akin to Bulgarian and/or Serbian language) within the geographical boundaries of historical Macedonia, is tantamount to either a Bulgarian or a purportedly distinct ?Macedonian ethnicity? or national identity. To this end, there is tangible and persuasive evidence to support the premise of Vlasidis and Karakostanoglou that "the distinct Slavic dialect spoken in certain villages in Greek Macedonia does not necessarily certify the existence of an ethnic minority" http://www.abest.com/~angelos/Vlasidis.htm Respectfully submitted, Christos D. Katsetos, MD, PhD, MRCPath "H glwssa esti gnwrisma ti lian epousiwdes kai sfaleron, ef'ou ouden dikaiwma e8emeliw8h" [Diafwtistikh Epitroph Oikoumenikou Patriarceiou <> M. Gedewn, Eggrafa?, o.p., s. 64-65] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/eed07d1a/attachment.html From mango at makedonskosonce.com Mon Jan 20 16:10:33 2003 From: mango at makedonskosonce.com (Slavko Mangovski) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E283D99.EA248E43@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <00dc01c2c0e1$87740f20$03c13318@atlsfl.adelphia.net> Christos D. Katsetos wrote: > Moreover, in my view, Kontogiannis? account falls > far short of establishing a tangible case for a Macedonian? national > awakening, let alone a distinct ?Macedonian? ethnic identity. Other documents might suggest a different picture. In an interview by Nikola Karev (one of the leaders of the Ilinden uprising) published in the 'Akropolis' newspaper of May 8, 1903 claims to be a Macedonian (and not Bulgarian or Greek) fighting for indipendent Macedonia. In the letters to his wife Pavlos Melas clearly calls Macedonians by that name and their language Macedonian. If I'm not mistaken in his letters he also describes a most revealing moment when a Macedonian leader addressing villagers (in Macedonian, according to Melas) tells them that in order to save themselves Macedonians must become Greeks or Bulgarians. It seems to me that the FREEDOM OF CHOICE is often overlooked when discussing identities in the Balkans. If a Vlach like Bletsas only few years ago was sent to court and had to undergo various humiliations just because he claimed to be a Vlach speaking Vlach what would've happened 50 or 100 years ago? What was the choice of a Vlach, Arvanite, Macedonian or anybody else but to be an ardent Greek in order to survive? Greece is not an exception, of course. Other countries employed similar practices. It is Greece that seems to be the most persistant in refusing to embrace reality of the existence of national minorities. But that is changing, too. Slavko Mangovski From mango at makedonskosonce.com Mon Jan 20 16:12:05 2003 From: mango at makedonskosonce.com (Slavko Mangovski) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] 'Kadare'-'Greek wedding' prejudice References: <1043008326.3e2b0b46a8b14@webmail.wmin.ac.uk> Message-ID: <00e601c2c0e1$bba32100$03c13318@atlsfl.adelphia.net> C.Buhayer@westminster.ac.uk wrote: > After all, the award winning film 'Before the Rain' by the Macedonian film maker > Milcho Manchevski concerned a clash between SlavMacedonians and > AlbanianMacedonians; it was shot in 'Makedonija' and won an Oscar for the Best > Foreign Language Film in 1995, and won the Brasilian Audience Award. Alas, not true. It did not win an Oscar although it came very close. Rumors say that it was the intense lobbying of a foreign country that prevented it from winning. Proof that it should've won is all the other prizes it won while nobody remembers the actual winner (Russian "Burnt by the Sun"). Slavko Mangovski From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 20 06:40:31 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E283D99.EA248E43@bellatlantic.net> <00dc01c2c0e1$87740f20$03c13318@atlsfl.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3E2C0A5F.4D5614AB@bellatlantic.net> Slavko Mangovski wrote: > Christos D. Katsetos wrote: > > > Moreover, in my view, Kontogiannis? account falls > > far short of establishing a tangible case for a Macedonian? national > > awakening, let alone a distinct ?Macedonian? ethnic identity. > > Other documents might suggest a different picture. In an interview by Nikola > Karev (one of the leaders of the Ilinden uprising) published in the > 'Akropolis' newspaper of May 8, 1903 claims to be a Macedonian (and not > Bulgarian or Greek) fighting for indipendent Macedonia. In the letters to > his wife Pavlos Melas clearly calls Macedonians by that name and their > language Macedonian. If I'm not mistaken in his letters he also describes a > most revealing moment when a Macedonian leader addressing villagers (in > Macedonian, according to Melas) tells them that in order to save themselves > Macedonians must become Greeks or Bulgarians. Regarding your intriguing claims concerning the letters of Pavlos Melas, I am afraid that without the specific narrative or a citation I shan?t be able to offer any comments at this time. However, it would be of considerable interest if you would (a) document the specific excerpts in the letter(s) in question and/or (b) provide us with the publication source/citation for the perusal of the full text of the documents (preferably in the original language) or their English translation. > It seems to me that the > FREEDOM OF CHOICE is often overlooked when discussing identities in the > Balkans. If a Vlach like Bletsas only few years ago was sent to court and > had to undergo various humiliations just because he claimed to be a Vlach > speaking Vlach what would've happened 50 or 100 years ago? What was the > choice of a Vlach, Arvanite, Macedonian or anybody else but to be an ardent > Greek in order to survive? Greece is not an exception, of course. Other > countries employed similar practices. It is Greece that seems to be the most > persistant in refusing to embrace reality of the existence of national > minorities. But that is changing, too. > With all due respect, the Vlach Greeks have established their credentials in Modern Greek History. Let it be known in no uncertain terms that the overwhelming majority of Vlachs currently residing in Greece declare proudly, explicitly and resolutely their Greek identity. http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020401a.htm http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020301.htm The long list of Vlach Greek statesmen and politicians, clergymen, academicians, educators, law makers, physicians/scientists, businessmen, entrepreneurs and benefactors who contributed immeasurably to the building of the Modern Greek State stand as exemplary examples in this regard. [Some of my own views on the so-called Vlach minority question in Greece were recently posted in this list https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2003-January/001296.html] The ethnography of the Vlachs and their contribution to the shaping of Modern Greek identity are critically examined in the Academy of Athens Award-winning book by Asterios Koukoudis ?MELETES GIA TOUS BLACOUS, DEUTEROS TOMOS, OI MHTROPOLEIS KAI H DIASPORA TWN BLACWN. EKDOSEIS ZHTROS, QESSALONIKH, 2000 / Studies on the Vlachs. 2nd Vol. (Greek edition)- The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora.? Zitros Publications: Thessaloniki, 2000] Appended below are excerpts from the Introduction of Koukoudis? book: " It?s a fact that a number of historians and students of the Vlachs have ignored the historical background out of which the modern Greek nation emerged. Since they ignored or overlooked the Roman and Byzantine periods, it?s no wonder that they disregarded the Vlachs too. And it was only to be expected that a variety of self-appointed saviours and patrons should seek to claim the Vlachs out of this limbo. But in the end, despite indifference and often rejection, the Vlachs have emerged by their own efforts as a valuable component of modern Greek history and the modern Greek identity. The history of the Vlach populations is an inseparable part of the modern Greek experience and at the same time an important chapter in Balkan history. Without a doubt, the Vlachs are one of the fundamental vehicles of the Balkan dimension of modern Greece, a dimension which is sometimes disregarded and sometimes extolled. But when Vlach-related issues come to be regarded as taboo, then the most serious risk is that the Vlachs will start to feel alienated from their own space and their own homeland. Yet this sense of alienation conflicts with their collective memory, which has always identified them with Romiosyni. The Vlachs? journey from the Ottoman millet-i-r?m to the re-establishment of the Greek nation was essentially no different from that of other groups, whether Greek-speaking or not, who in the same period (19th?20th century) found themselves taking part in the nation-building ferment and changes which helped to shape the modern Greek identity." In my view, the following quote from the same book illustrates the timeless and steadfast spirit of ordinary Vlach Greeks: "I shall never forget what I heard from the simple people who gave the wisest, clearest answers to my questions, drawn from their own profound experience. Barba-Kostas Ziogas in Perithori near Kato Nevrokopi was one, and he told me: ?Look lad, the Greki aren?t more Greek than we are. We may be Vlachs, they may be Greki, but all together we make up the Greeks.? " Respectfully submitted, Christos D. Katsetos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/31ac9605/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Mon Jan 20 20:15:35 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Message-ID: <16f.197be8d3.2b5e2367@aol.com> Lorin Danforth wrote: > I would like to comment briefly on two statements that were made > recently in the discussion of minorities in Greece, both of which are > extreme oversimplifications of complicated issues. > > The Ottoman statistics almost always referred to what we call ethnic groups,= > > =20 > > matter of fact the word millet means "ethnicity, people." > Millets cannot be easily equated with ethnic groups. Millets were based on > religious identities. In some cases religion is a key feature in > definitions of ethnic groups, but in others language or some other trait > is key. In some cases there are no cultural characteristics that > distinguish between ethnic groups. All we have are assertions by people > that they belong to different groups. Brothers can belong to different > ethnic groups.> Let us accept the above, without any farther discussion between linguists, religious representatives, experts in traditions and folklors, and everybody or everything else that might define a "millet". The question is, where was this so-called "Macedonian" millet of the Balkans during the Ottoman times? Thats it, where was hiding this "Macedonian" millet, under which other "millet" was included, if indeed such "Macedonians" were already in place when the Ottomans arrived in the Balkans. We know of the following "millets" in the Balkans: 1. The Rum and/or U-rum millet for the Greeks. 2. The Bulgar millet for the Bulgarians. 3. The Ermeni millet for the Armenians. 4. The U-lach millet for those speaking any of the Roman-Romanic etc.etc. dialects, or for the better for those speaking a Vlachian idiom/dialect from the many spoken all over the Balkans. Such millet was recognized by the Ottomans after pressure by Roumania and Austria ( another long discussion in here). 5. The Se(i)rb millet for those Serbian living in the Kossovo area. 6. The Yahudi (Yahunti) millet for the Jews. 7. The Islam millet for all the Muslims including the Muslim Albanians, Turko-Albanians as well as those Nationalist Albanians aiming towards a greater Albania and undermining certain decisions by the Sultan. So, one more time, where was the "Macedon" millet during the Ottoman presence in the Balkans, where? > > In other words after 1877 Macedonians=3DGreeks.>> > This comment ignores what is by now a large body of scholarship on the > Macedonian issue that conclusively demonstrates the variety of meanings > the term "Macedonian" has had over the past 130 years.> Indeed there is, and it is becoming more and more clear that such "millet" such Ethicity, such language, such Church, such people NEVER existed before August the 2nd 1944. > While I am delighted to see this issue being discussed again on the MGSA? > list, it is disappointing to see some of the same misunderstandings being > repeated. > The misunderstandings arise when a State wants to be known as Republic of Macedonia, a State in which a mere 18% of its lands is part of Macedonia, a State in which only a small minority within the same state do have the right to be called as Macedonians, a State in which an official Macedonian Church is not recognized by the Orthodox Church, a State which the World, UN, NATO, the EU do not recognize by such name, a state in which its OFFICIAL alphabet is that, that was created for the Moravian Slavs, a State in which its language derives from that Bulgarian one. As they say, in F.Y.R.O.M., NO TRANSLATORS needed for the Bulgarian language. Can we baptize as Macedonians those Ethnic Albanians living in F.Y.R.O.M. ? Can we baptize as Macedonians those Ethnic Turks, living in F.Y.R.O.M.? Can we baptize as Macedonians those Serbs living in F.Y.R.O.M.? This is the misunderstanding. > Loring M. Danforth > > Bates College > Lewiston, Maine 04240 > > ldanfort@bates.edu Regards to all...............L. George Sofoklis Tsapanos "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/743919ed/attachment.html From gedeon at globalserve.net Mon Jan 20 20:30:17 2003 From: gedeon at globalserve.net (George Gedeon) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlachs References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E283D99.EA248E43@bellatlantic.net> <00dc01c2c0e1$87740f20$03c13318@atlsfl.adelphia.net> <3E2C0A5F.4D5614AB@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <002f01c2c106$01103880$a89cfed8@globalserve.net> Can any one explain why when a Greek perceives another Greek as stupid, un-educated, ignorant or primitive, he calls him a "Vlacho"? George Gedeon ----- Original Message ----- From: Christos D. Katsetos To: Slavko Mangovski Cc: Tasos Kostopulos ; MGSA-L@uci.edu Sent: January 20, 2003 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia Slavko Mangovski wrote: Christos D. Katsetos wrote: > Moreover, in my view, Kontogiannis? account falls > far short of establishing a tangible case for a Macedonian? national > awakening, let alone a distinct ?Macedonian? ethnic identity. Other documents might suggest a different picture. In an interview by Nikola Karev (one of the leaders of the Ilinden uprising) published in the 'Akropolis' newspaper of May 8, 1903 claims to be a Macedonian (and not Bulgarian or Greek) fighting for indipendent Macedonia. In the letters to his wife Pavlos Melas clearly calls Macedonians by that name and their language Macedonian. If I'm not mistaken in his letters he also describes a most revealing moment when a Macedonian leader addressing villagers (in Macedonian, according to Melas) tells them that in order to save themselves Macedonians must become Greeks or Bulgarians. Regarding your intriguing claims concerning the letters of Pavlos Melas, I am afraid that without the specific narrative or a citation I shan't be able to offer any comments at this time. However, it would be of considerable interest if you would (a) document the specific excerpts in the letter(s) in question and/or (b) provide us with the publication source/citation for the perusal of the full text of the documents (preferably in the original language) or their English translation. It seems to me that the FREEDOM OF CHOICE is often overlooked when discussing identities in the Balkans. If a Vlach like Bletsas only few years ago was sent to court and had to undergo various humiliations just because he claimed to be a Vlach speaking Vlach what would've happened 50 or 100 years ago? What was the choice of a Vlach, Arvanite, Macedonian or anybody else but to be an ardent Greek in order to survive? Greece is not an exception, of course. Other countries employed similar practices. It is Greece that seems to be the most persistant in refusing to embrace reality of the existence of national minorities. But that is changing, too. With all due respect, the Vlach Greeks have established their credentials in Modern Greek History. Let it be known in no uncertain terms that the overwhelming majority of Vlachs currently residing in Greece declare proudly, explicitly and resolutely their Greek identity. http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020401a.htm http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020301.htm The long list of Vlach Greek statesmen and politicians, clergymen, academicians, educators, law makers, physicians/scientists, businessmen, entrepreneurs and benefactors who contributed immeasurably to the building of the Modern Greek State stand as exemplary examples in this regard. [Some of my own views on the so-called Vlach minority question in Greece were recently posted in this list https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2003-January/001296.html] The ethnography of the Vlachs and their contribution to the shaping of Modern Greek identity are critically examined in the Academy of Athens Award-winning book by Asterios Koukoudis 'MELETES GIA TOUS BLACOUS, DEUTEROS TOMOS, OI MHTROPOLEIS KAI H DIASPORA TWN BLACWN. EKDOSEIS ZHTROS, QESSALONIKH, 2000 / Studies on the Vlachs. 2nd Vol. (Greek edition)- The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora.' Zitros Publications: Thessaloniki, 2000] Appended below are excerpts from the Introduction of Koukoudis' book: " It's a fact that a number of historians and students of the Vlachs have ignored the historical background out of which the modern Greek nation emerged. Since they ignored or overlooked the Roman and Byzantine periods, it's no wonder that they disregarded the Vlachs too. And it was only to be expected that a variety of self-appointed saviours and patrons should seek to claim the Vlachs out of this limbo. But in the end, despite indifference and often rejection, the Vlachs have emerged by their own efforts as a valuable component of modern Greek history and the modern Greek identity. The history of the Vlach populations is an inseparable part of the modern Greek experience and at the same time an important chapter in Balkan history. Without a doubt, the Vlachs are one of the fundamental vehicles of the Balkan dimension of modern Greece, a dimension which is sometimes disregarded and sometimes extolled. But when Vlach-related issues come to be regarded as taboo, then the most serious risk is that the Vlachs will start to feel alienated from their own space and their own homeland. Yet this sense of alienation conflicts with their collective memory, which has always identified them with Romiosyni. The Vlachs' journey from the Ottoman millet-i-r?m to the re-establishment of the Greek nation was essentially no different from that of other groups, whether Greek-speaking or not, who in the same period (19th?20th century) found themselves taking part in the nation-building ferment and changes which helped to shape the modern Greek identity." In my view, the following quote from the same book illustrates the timeless and steadfast spirit of ordinary Vlach Greeks: "I shall never forget what I heard from the simple people who gave the wisest, clearest answers to my questions, drawn from their own profound experience. Barba-Kostas Ziogas in Perithori near Kato Nevrokopi was one, and he told me: 'Look lad, the Greki aren't more Greek than we are. We may be Vlachs, they may be Greki, but all together we make up the Greeks.' " Respectfully submitted, Christos D. Katsetos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/6ef8c30d/attachment.html From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Mon Jan 20 20:25:07 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlachs References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E283D99.EA248E43@bellatlantic.net> <00dc01c2c0e1$87740f20$03c13318@atlsfl.adelphia.net> <3E2C0A5F.4D5614AB@bellatlantic.net> <002f01c2c106$01103880$a89cfed8@globalserve.net> Message-ID: <3E2CCBA3.391D4C91@hermesnetwork.com> Yes, it's kind of how Newfies are portrayed in Canada. Newfoundlanders don't like it either, but they're still Canadians. In fact, many Newfoundlanders use the term "Newfie" when referring to one another! You know that, you're in Canada! Next. Sotiris Sotiropoulos George Gedeon wrote: > Can any one explain why when a Greek perceives another > Greek as stupid, un-educated, ignorant or primitive, he > calls him a "Vlacho"? > > George Gedeon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christos D. Katsetos > To: Slavko Mangovski > Cc: Tasos Kostopulos ; MGSA-L@uci.edu > Sent: January 20, 2003 9:40 AM > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika > kondylia > > > Slavko Mangovski wrote: > > > Christos D. Katsetos wrote: > > > > > Moreover, in my view, Kontogiannis? > > account falls > > > far short of establishing a tangible case > > for a Macedonian? national > > > awakening, let alone a distinct > > ?Macedonian? ethnic identity. > > > > Other documents might suggest a different > > picture. In an interview by Nikola > > Karev (one of the leaders of the Ilinden > > uprising) published in the > > 'Akropolis' newspaper of May 8, 1903 claims > > to be a Macedonian (and not > > Bulgarian or Greek) fighting for indipendent > > Macedonia. In the letters to > > his wife Pavlos Melas clearly calls > > Macedonians by that name and their > > language Macedonian. If I'm not mistaken in > > his letters he also describes a > > most revealing moment when a Macedonian > > leader addressing villagers (in > > Macedonian, according to Melas) tells them > > that in order to save themselves > > Macedonians must become Greeks or > > Bulgarians. > > > Regarding your intriguing claims concerning > the letters of Pavlos Melas, I am afraid that > without the specific narrative or a citation I > shan?t be able to offer any comments at this > time. However, it would be of considerable > interest if you would (a) document the > specific excerpts in the letter(s) in question > and/or (b) provide us with the publication > source/citation for the perusal of the full > text of the documents (preferably in the > original language) or their English > translation. > > > > It seems to me that the > > FREEDOM OF CHOICE is often overlooked when > > discussing identities in the > > Balkans. If a Vlach like Bletsas only few > > years ago was sent to court and > > had to undergo various humiliations just > > because he claimed to be a Vlach > > speaking Vlach what would've happened 50 or > > 100 years ago? What was the > > choice of a Vlach, Arvanite, Macedonian or > > anybody else but to be an ardent > > Greek in order to survive? Greece is not an > > exception, of course. Other > > countries employed similar practices. It is > > Greece that seems to be the most > > persistant in refusing to embrace reality of > > the existence of national > > minorities. But that is changing, too. > > With all due respect, the Vlach Greeks have > established their credentials in Modern Greek > History. Let it be known in no uncertain terms > that the overwhelming majority of Vlachs > currently residing in Greece declare proudly, > explicitly and resolutely their Greek > identity. > > http://me > bres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020401a.htm > http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020301.htm > > The long list of Vlach Greek statesmen and > politicians, clergymen, academicians, > educators, law makers, physicians/scientists, > businessmen, entrepreneurs and benefactors who > contributed immeasurably to the building of > the Modern Greek State stand as exemplary > examples in this regard. > > [Some of my own views on the so-called Vlach > minority question in Greece were recently > posted in this list > https://maillists.u > i.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2003-January/001296.html] > > The ethnography of the Vlachs and their > contribution to the shaping of Modern Greek > identity are critically examined in the > Academy of Athens Award-winning book by > Asterios Koukoudis ?MELETES GIA TOUS BLACOUS, > DEUTEROS TOMOS, OI MHTROPOLEIS KAI H DIASPORA > TWN BLACWN. EKDOSEIS ZHTROS, QESSALONIKH, > 2000 / Studies on the Vlachs. 2nd Vol. (Greek > edition)- The Vlachs: Metropolis and > Diaspora.? Zitros Publications: Thessaloniki, > 2000] > > Appended below are excerpts from the > Introduction of Koukoudis? book: > > " It?s a fact that a number of historians and > students of the Vlachs have ignored the > historical background out of which the modern > Greek nation emerged. Since they ignored or > overlooked the Roman and Byzantine periods, > it?s no wonder that they disregarded the > Vlachs too. And it was only to be expected > that a variety of self-appointed saviours and > patrons should seek to claim the Vlachs out of > this limbo. But in the end, despite > indifference and often rejection, the Vlachs > have emerged by their own efforts as a > valuable component of modern Greek history and > the modern Greek identity. The history of the > Vlach populations is an inseparable part of > the modern Greek experience and at the same > time an important chapter in Balkan history. > Without a doubt, the Vlachs are one of the > fundamental vehicles of the Balkan dimension > of modern Greece, a dimension which is > sometimes disregarded and sometimes extolled. > But when Vlach-related issues come to be > regarded as taboo, then the most serious risk > is that the Vlachs will start to feel > alienated from their own space and their own > homeland. Yet this sense of alienation > conflicts with their collective memory, which > has always identified them with Romiosyni. The > Vlachs? journey from the Ottoman millet-i-r?m > to the re-establishment of the Greek nation > was essentially no > different from that of other groups, whether > Greek-speaking or not, who in the same period > (19th?20th century) found themselves taking > part in the nation-building ferment and > changes which helped to shape the modern Greek > identity." > > In my view, the following quote from the same > book illustrates the timeless and steadfast > spirit of ordinary Vlach Greeks: > > "I shall never forget what I heard from the > simple people who gave the wisest, clearest > answers to my questions, drawn from their own > profound experience. Barba-Kostas Ziogas in > Perithori near Kato Nevrokopi was one, and he > told me: > > ?Look lad, the Greki aren?t more Greek than we > are. We may be Vlachs, they may be Greki, but > all together we make up the Greeks.? " > > Respectfully submitted, > > Christos D. Katsetos > > > From LYNGOS at aol.com Mon Jan 20 20:35:20 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlachs Message-ID: <1ab.fb25d64.2b5e2808@aol.com> In a message dated 1/20/03 20:26:43 Pacific Standard Time, gedeon@globalserve.net writes: > Can any one explain why when a Greek perceives another Greek as stupid, > un-educated, ignorant or primitive, he calls him a "Vlacho"? > > George Gedeon > Didn't you know that those proud "Neo-Hellenes" had to find something offensive as well as insulting for the original people of Hellas? It makes them feel "stronger", more "Hellenes", more in "control". Poor ignorants! Regards to all.............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/0d99035a/attachment.html From LYNGOS at aol.com Mon Jan 20 20:40:40 2003 From: LYNGOS at aol.com (LYNGOS@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlachs Message-ID: In a message dated 1/20/03 20:33:39 Pacific Standard Time, sotiris@hermesnetwork.com writes: > > Yes, it's kind of how Newfies are portrayed in Canada. > Newfoundlanders don't like it either, but they're still > Canadians. In fact, many Newfoundlanders use the term > "Newfie" when referring to one another! You know that, > you're in Canada! > > Next. > > Then those "Newfies" must be the descendants of the ancient Canadian people. Just like the Vlachs, are the descendants of the ancient Hellenic Ethnos, that became known as Ethnos Makednon, as soon as such Ethnos reached the Pindus mountains. Just take a look at Herodotus, Book 1-56. Regards to all..............L. "Vlachs, the autochthonous of the Hellenic peninsula". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030120/1a32dbdb/attachment.html From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Mon Jan 20 20:58:49 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlachs References: Message-ID: <3E2CD388.D8D1C6FF@hermesnetwork.com> LYNGOS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/20/03 20:33:39 Pacific Standard > Time, sotiris@hermesnetwork.com writes: > > > >> >> Yes, it's kind of how Newfies are portrayed in Canada. >> >> Newfoundlanders don't like it either, but they're >> still >> Canadians. In fact, many Newfoundlanders use the term >> >> "Newfie" when referring to one another! You know >> that, >> you're in Canada! >> >> Next. >> >> Sotiris Sotiropoulos > > Then those "Newfies" must be the descendants of the > ancient Canadian people. Well, not exactly, but they're certainly 'more' Canadian than Mr. Gedeon. They are pimarily Anglo decscendants who first settled on the Eastern shores of Canada in Newfoundland and Labrador. They're quite good people, actually. I've many friends, and worked with many. Sotiris Sotiropoulos From JUNESAM at aol.com Mon Jan 20 21:59:09 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlachs Message-ID: <158.1aac1d2c.2b5e3bad@aol.com> > Well, not exactly, but they're certainly 'more' Canadian > than Mr. Gedeon. They are pimarily Anglo decscendants who > first settled on the Eastern shores of Canada in > Newfoundland and Labrador. They're quite good people, > actually. I've many friends, and worked with many. ---------------------- Sotiris "Anglo" descendants they are definitely NOT - mostly of Irish origin; Catholic, not Protestant by religion ...and that Irish accent still echoes in their quite distinctive speech patterns - "Newfie" English is enough of a dialect as to require a dictionary of its own !!! Every culture seems to identify a sub group, whose lack of urban sophistication means thay can be the butt of innumerable jokes about their supposed ignorance and simplicity - Greeks have Vlachs, Canadians have Newfies, Scots have Aberdonians, English have the Welsh, Scots & Irish to choose from Used to be the Americans had their "Polack" jokes. These traditions go back a long way - compare the humour of Hodja Nasreddin and Karagiozis where the clever underdog gets his own back on the authorities as well ! June S From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Mon Jan 20 22:09:43 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlachs In-Reply-To: <158.1aac1d2c.2b5e3bad@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030121010525.00b1f2a8@mail.hermesnetwork.com> At 12:59 AM 1/21/2003 -0500, JUNESAM@aol.com wrote: > > Well, not exactly, but they're certainly 'more' Canadian > > than Mr. Gedeon. They are pimarily Anglo decscendants who > > first settled on the Eastern shores of Canada in > > Newfoundland and Labrador. They're quite good people, > > actually. I've many friends, and worked with many. >---------------------- >Sotiris > >"Anglo" descendants they are definitely NOT - mostly of >Irish origin; Catholic, not Protestant by religion ...and that Irish >accent still echoes in their quite distinctive speech patterns >- "Newfie" English is enough of a dialect as to require a >dictionary of its own !!! Woops. You're right of course. I guess I just lumped them naively together. I definitely know better and now that you mention it, there is an Irish lilt to their English (quite pronounced at times). I've never been to see the place but I hope too. >Every culture seems to identify a sub group, whose lack >of urban sophistication means thay can be the butt of >innumerable jokes about their supposed ignorance >and simplicity - Greeks have Vlachs, Canadians have >Newfies, Scots have Aberdonians, English have the >Welsh, Scots & Irish to choose from Used to >be the Americans had their "Polack" jokes. These >traditions go back a long way - compare the humour >of Hodja Nasreddin and Karagiozis where the clever >underdog gets his own back on the authorities as well ! Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services Established, Fast, Reliable. Since 1998 From JUNESAM at aol.com Mon Jan 20 22:17:48 2003 From: JUNESAM at aol.com (JUNESAM@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Karagiozis & vlachs etc. Message-ID: <1c3.3c71b88.2b5e400c@aol.com> A small little item to bookmark if you like Karagiozis puppets Some of the Spatharis Puppets are displayed in a small local folkore museum on Kassandra, Chalkidiki Might be worth a detour if you are in Thessaloniki - http://www.museumsofmacedonia.gr/Folklore/Laografiko_Afutou.html Though it might be wise to check locally on opening hours before visiting to avoid disappointment The web site gives phone numbers and e-mail addresses where available. This same web site "www.museumsofmacedonia.gr" includes a lot of local "Laographia" museums in small communities which may not be very well known - for example a Vlach Museum in Naoussa http://www.museumsofmacedonia.gr/Folklore/Laografiko_Blaxvn.html June S From cvrhasd at techunix.technion.ac.il Mon Jan 20 22:47:37 2003 From: cvrhasd at techunix.technion.ac.il (Samuel Hassid) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:06 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlahos Message-ID: Vlahos does not mean stupid, but rather peasant and unacquainted with the city way of life. On the contrary, they say "O vlahos einai poniros" (the vlah is cunning). From cvrhasd at techunix.technion.ac.il Mon Jan 20 23:00:55 2003 From: cvrhasd at techunix.technion.ac.il (Samuel Hassid) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:07 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] 'Kadare'-'Greek wedding' prejudice In-Reply-To: <00e601c2c0e1$bba32100$03c13318@atlsfl.adelphia.net> Message-ID: I guess the foreign country must have been a big power, like Russia, for example. Or was it not ? I am not particularly aware that "Before the Rain" is so much more famous than "Burnt in the Sun" - especially since I do remember a film of old Yugoslavia in its final days on the love between a serb and a kossovar albanian woman. On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Slavko Mangovski wrote: > > C.Buhayer@westminster.ac.uk wrote: > > > After all, the award winning film 'Before the Rain' by the Macedonian film > maker > > Milcho Manchevski concerned a clash between SlavMacedonians and > > AlbanianMacedonians; it was shot in 'Makedonija' and won an Oscar for the > Best > > Foreign Language Film in 1995, and won the Brasilian Audience Award. > > Alas, not true. It did not win an Oscar although it came very close. Rumors > say > that it was the intense lobbying of a foreign country that prevented it from > winning. > Proof that it should've won is all the other prizes it won while nobody > remembers > the actual winner (Russian "Burnt by the Sun"). > > Slavko Mangovski > > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l > From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Mon Jan 20 23:03:59 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:07 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlahos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030121020041.00b1f2a8@mail.hermesnetwork.com> At 08:47 AM 1/21/2003 +0200, Samuel Hassid wrote: > Vlahos does not mean stupid, but rather peasant and unacquainted with >the city way of life. On the contrary, they say "O vlahos einai poniros" >(the vlah is cunning). Yes, I cannot deny that. Since I was a child, my father would always say of me that I thought I was a clever Vlahos! Then I would laugh and he would rub my cheek with his beard. Very good Mr. Hassid. Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services Established, Fast, Reliable. Since 1998 From C.Buhayer at westminster.ac.uk Tue Jan 21 02:14:09 2003 From: C.Buhayer at westminster.ac.uk (buhayec) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:07 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Karagiozis-hunger-Dubya In-Reply-To: <1c3.3c71b88.2b5e400c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E2D1D70.24398.5078899@localhost> (Comment prompted by June's email] When Spatharis brought his Karagiozis shadow play to London (1996?) he was asked to comment on the impact of our rapidly changing times on the perception of Karagiozis. He noticed that less than 20 years ago, when the Kolitiria (K's sons) or other characters would make a fuss of being hungry, the audiences would laugh because many of the Greeks knew exactly what hunger meant and the pains that went with it. Today, he concluded, hardly anyone remembers those days and it would be impossible to comment on Greek society through hunger, 'autos o ponos exei allaxei'. Perhaps today we should expect for 'Karagiozis plastic surgeon', or 'Karagiozis international adviser to Dubya Bush'... CB Some of the Spatharis Puppets are displayed in a small local folkore museum on Kassandra, Chalkidiki Might be worth a detour if you are in Thessaloniki - http://www.museumsofmacedonia.gr/Folklore/Laografiko_Afutou.html From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 20 17:01:59 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:07 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Karagiozis & vlachs etc. References: <1c3.3c71b88.2b5e400c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E2C9C06.FBA052C9@bellatlantic.net> If you come to think of it, the relationship between Karagiozis and Barba Giorgos represents a very palpable example of 'Rhomaiic' (modern Greek) allegory. A year ago, the author of the Academy of Athens Award winning book 'Studies of the Vlachs', Asterios Koukoudis, wrote to me in a private correspondence: "Sto elliniko 8eatro skion, pu ehi tis rizes tu stin Asia, o protagonistis, o Karagiozis, me to toso haraktiristiko turkiko onoma ke ola ta proterimata ke ta elatomatta tu Romiu, ehi enan 8io, ton mparmpa Giorgo ton Vlaho, pu trehi se voi8ia tu anipsiu tu kathe fora pu aftos ta 8alassoni. An lipon aftos o anamfivola Romios ehi enan Vlaho 8io tote nomizo pos ke o idios o Karagiozis ine ligo Vlahos............. :-) !!!" 'In the Greek 'Shadow Theatre', which has its roots in Asia Minor, the protagonist, Karagiozis, with his so typically Turkish name along with all the positive inasmuch as negative attributes of 'Romios' (Modern Greek), had a dear uncle: Barba Giorgos (uncle Giorgo) the Vlach, who would always be ready and eager to come to the assistance of his hopelessly reckless nephew, who would often turn things topsy-turvy. If, therefore, the uncle of the quintessential Romios (Karagiozis) was a Vlach, then it might be reasonable to suggest that Karagiozis was a bit of a Vlach himself :-) !!! Christos D. Katsetos JUNESAM@aol.com wrote: > A small little item to bookmark if you like Karagiozis puppets > > Some of the Spatharis Puppets are displayed in a small > local folkore museum on Kassandra, Chalkidiki > Might be worth a detour if you are in Thessaloniki - > > http://www.museumsofmacedonia.gr/Folklore/Laografiko_Afutou.html > > Though it might be wise to check locally on opening hours before > visiting to avoid disappointment The web site gives phone numbers > and e-mail addresses where available. > > This same web site "www.museumsofmacedonia.gr" includes a > lot of local "Laographia" museums in small communities which may > not be very well known - for example a Vlach Museum in Naoussa > > http://www.museumsofmacedonia.gr/Folklore/Laografiko_Blaxvn.html > > June S > _______________________________________________ > List-Info: https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/mgsa-l From sotiris at hermesnetwork.com Tue Jan 21 06:49:56 2003 From: sotiris at hermesnetwork.com (Sotiris Sotiropoulos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:07 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Olympic Hymn latest Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030121094923.00ba6b48@mail.hermesnetwork.com> Today, the British Olympic Association has removed my translation from their web page and have not replaced it. See: http://www.olympics.org.uk/olympicmovement/olympicmovement.asp Sotiris Sotiropoulos Hermes Network Inc. Toronto, Canada 416-422-1034 or 1-866-991-HOST http://hermesnetwork.com - Web Hosting & IT Services Established, Fast, Reliable. Since 1998 From george.syrimis at yale.edu Tue Jan 21 07:02:10 2003 From: george.syrimis at yale.edu (George Syrimis) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:07 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Balkan cinema Conference (revisited) Message-ID: I hope this time my message is legible. Apologies for the repetition. The following conference is organized by the Film Studies Program at Yale University and co-sponsored by the Hellenic Studies Program. The conference program includes three Greek films: Thursday, February 6 7:30pm, Balkanisateur (Valkanisateur), by Goritsas, 1997 Friday, February 7 7:00pm, The Four Seasons of the Law (I earini synaxis ton agrofylakon), by Avdeliodis, 1999 Sunday, February 9 12:00 noon, It's a Long Road (Ola ine dromos), by Voulgaris, 1998 2:00pm, The Four Seasons of the Law (I earini synaxis ton agrofylakon), by Avdeliodis, 1999 For more information please visit the following site: http://www.yale.edu/filmstudiesprogram/Balkan%20intro.html No Man's Land, Everyone's Image: Cinema in the Balkans Yale University, Whitney Humanities Center, 53 Wall Street February 6-9, 2003 Free and open to the public Thursday, February 6 4pm: Balkan Cinema and the Geopolitical Imaginary - Fredric Jameson 7pm: Film: Who's That Singing Over There (Ko to tamo peva), _ijan, 1980, VHS 8:30pm: Film: Balkanisateur (Valkanisateur), Goritsas, 1997, 35mm Friday, February 7 9am: Space, Territory, Geopolitics - Katie Trumpener, Nevena _akovi_, Herb Eagle 11:15am: Film: Who Wants to Be a President (Novo, novo, vrijeme), Grli_ & Mirkovi_, 2001, VHS 1:30pm: Registers of Emotion: Comedy, Music, Allegory - Andrew Horton, George Syrimis, Maria Stassinopoulou 3:30pm: Film: Before the Rain (Pred dozhdot), 1994, 35mm 7pm: Film: The Four Seasons of the Law (I earini synaxis ton agrofylakon), Avdeliodis, 1999, 35mm Saturday, February 8 9:30am: Once There Was a Country: Kusturica - Paul Coates, Goran Goci_, Vassiliki Tsitsopoulou 1pm: Cultural Memory/Identity - Thomas Elsaesser, Slobodan Novak, Sasa Mili_ 3:00pm: Film: Serbia, Anno Zero, Markovi_, 2001, VHS 4:30pm: Whose Cinema? Who's Writing its History? - Nata_a _urovi_ov?, Daniel Goulding, Dina Iordanova 7pm: Film: No Man's Land (Ni_ija zemlja), Tanovi_, 2001, 35mm 9pm: Film: In the Jaws of Life (U raljama _ivota), 1984, 35mm with Director Rajko Grlic's introduction Sunday, February 9 8:30am: Film: I Even Met Some Happy Gypsies (Skuplja_i perja), Petrovi_, 1967, VHS 10am: Looking at 'Them', Defining Ourselves - Evelyn Preuss, Dudley Andrew, Dina Iordanova 12noon: Film: It's a Long Road (Ola ine dromos), Voulgaris, 1998, 35mm 2pm: Film: The Four Seasons of the Law (I earini synaxis ton agrofylakon), Avdeliodis, 1999, 35mm Sponsors: European Studies Council, Hellenic Studies, Film Studies and the Whitney Humanities Center For more information contact Susan Hart at susan.hart@yale.edu or at (203)-436-4668 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030121/8d5a88b4/attachment.html From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 20 18:06:33 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:07 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlachs References: <012401c2bc02$de8b41e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E257925.36B3D950@bellatlantic.net> <003c01c2bd71$f463f1e0$5601a8c0@internal.enet.gr> <3E283D99.EA248E43@bellatlantic.net> <00dc01c2c0e1$87740f20$03c13318@atlsfl.adelphia.net> <3E2C0A5F.4D5614AB@bellatlantic.net> <002f01c2c106$01103880$a89cfed8@globalserve.net> Message-ID: <3E2CAB28.444BA0B5@bellatlantic.net> "Vlachs cannot be regarded either as a picturesque remnant of the vanished pastoral life of the mountains, a kind of museum piece, or as a minority easily manipulated by shrewd patrons. The Vlachs are not a minority, nor are they just fustanella-clad Vlach-speakers; they are primarily city-dwellers spread over almost the entire Greek mainland, and have made an enormous contribution to building this Greek homeland of ours. The evidence is there, from the impressive neoclassical buildings in Athens to the schools in the Macedonian market towns; from the first prime minister of Greece, Ioannis Kolettis, and the illustrious national benefactors to the forever unsung heroes from the Vlach villages who were slain during the Macedonian Struggle and the Axis Occupation." [Excerpt from the Preface by Konstantinos Stefanopoulos, President of the Hellenic Republic. From the Academy of Athens Award winning book by Asterios Koukoudis ?Studies on the Vlachs. 2nd Vol. (Greek edition)- The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora.? Zitros Publications: Thessaloniki, 2000] As a reminder, the Metsovion Technical University of Athens and the Zappeion Hall (currently the headquarters of the Greek EU Presidency) are just two, among many neoclassical edifices that were built through the generous contributions of Vlach Greek benefactors (G. Averoff, N. StournarIs, E. Tossizza, K. Zappas -- and the list goes on). http://www.ntua.gr/gr_about/index.htm Christos D. Katsetos George Gedeon wrote: > Can any one explain why when a Greek perceives another Greek as > stupid, un-educated, ignorant or primitive, he calls him a > "Vlacho"? George Gedeon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christos D. Katsetos > To: Slavko Mangovski > Cc: Tasos Kostopulos ; MGSA-L@uci.edu > Sent: January 20, 2003 9:40 AM > Subject: Re: [MGSA-L] Statistics & Mystika kondylia > > > Slavko Mangovski wrote: > > > Christos D. Katsetos wrote: > > > > > Moreover, in my view, Kontogiannis? account falls > > > far short of establishing a tangible case for a > > Macedonian? national > > > awakening, let alone a distinct ?Macedonian? ethnic > > identity. > > > > Other documents might suggest a different picture. In an > > interview by Nikola > > Karev (one of the leaders of the Ilinden uprising) > > published in the > > 'Akropolis' newspaper of May 8, 1903 claims to be a > > Macedonian (and not > > Bulgarian or Greek) fighting for indipendent Macedonia. In > > the letters to > > his wife Pavlos Melas clearly calls Macedonians by that > > name and their > > language Macedonian. If I'm not mistaken in his letters he > > also describes a > > most revealing moment when a Macedonian leader addressing > > villagers (in > > Macedonian, according to Melas) tells them that in order > > to save themselves > > Macedonians must become Greeks or Bulgarians. > > > Regarding your intriguing claims concerning the letters of > Pavlos Melas, I am afraid that without the specific > narrative or a citation I shan?t be able to offer any > comments at this time. However, it would be of considerable > interest if you would (a) document the specific excerpts in > the letter(s) in question and/or (b) provide us with the > publication source/citation for the perusal of the full text > of the documents (preferably in the original language) or > their English translation. > > > > It seems to me that the > > FREEDOM OF CHOICE is often overlooked when discussing > > identities in the > > Balkans. If a Vlach like Bletsas only few years ago was > > sent to court and > > had to undergo various humiliations just because he > > claimed to be a Vlach > > speaking Vlach what would've happened 50 or 100 years > > ago? What was the > > choice of a Vlach, Arvanite, Macedonian or anybody else > > but to be an ardent > > Greek in order to survive? Greece is not an exception, of > > course. Other > > countries employed similar practices. It is Greece that > > seems to be the most > > persistant in refusing to embrace reality of the existence > > of national > > minorities. But that is changing, too. > > With all due respect, the Vlach Greeks have established > their credentials in Modern Greek History. Let it be known > in no uncertain terms that the overwhelming majority of > Vlachs currently residing in Greece declare proudly, > explicitly and resolutely their Greek identity. > > http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020401a.htm > http://membres.lycos.fr/armanami/ta/020301.htm > > The long list of Vlach Greek statesmen and politicians, > clergymen, academicians, educators, law makers, > physicians/scientists, businessmen, entrepreneurs and > benefactors who contributed immeasurably to the building of > the Modern Greek State stand as exemplary examples in this > regard. > > [Some of my own views on the so-called Vlach minority > question in Greece were recently posted in this list > https://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/2003 > January/001296.html] > > The ethnography of the Vlachs and their contribution to the > shaping of Modern Greek identity are critically examined in > the Academy of Athens Award-winning book by Asterios > Koukoudis ?MELETES GIA TOUS BLACOUS, DEUTEROS TOMOS, OI > MHTROPOLEIS KAI H DIASPORA TWN BLACWN. EKDOSEIS ZHTROS, > QESSALONIKH, 2000 / Studies on the Vlachs. 2nd Vol. (Greek > edition)- The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora.? Zitros > Publications: Thessaloniki, 2000] > > Appended below are excerpts from the Introduction of > Koukoudis? book: > > " It?s a fact that a number of historians and students of > the Vlachs have ignored the historical background out of > which the modern Greek nation emerged. Since they ignored or > overlooked the Roman and Byzantine periods, it?s no wonder > that they disregarded the Vlachs too. And it was only to be > expected that a variety of self-appointed saviours and > patrons should seek to claim the Vlachs out of this limbo. > But in the end, despite indifference and often rejection, > the Vlachs have emerged by their own efforts as a valuable > component of modern Greek history and the modern Greek > identity. The history of the Vlach populations is an > inseparable part of the modern Greek experience and at the > same time an important chapter in Balkan history. Without a > doubt, the Vlachs are one of the fundamental vehicles of the > Balkan dimension of modern Greece, a dimension which is > sometimes disregarded and sometimes extolled. But when > Vlach-related issues come to be regarded as taboo, then the > most serious risk is that the Vlachs will start to feel > alienated from their own space and their own homeland. Yet > this sense of alienation conflicts with their collective > memory, which has always identified them with Romiosyni. The > Vlachs? journey from the Ottoman millet-i-r?m to the > re-establishment of the Greek nation was essentially no > different from that of other groups, whether Greek-speaking > or not, who in the same period (19th?20th century) found > themselves taking part in the nation-building ferment and > changes which helped to shape the modern Greek identity." > > In my view, the following quote from the same book > illustrates the timeless and steadfast spirit of ordinary > Vlach Greeks: > > "I shall never forget what I heard from the simple people > who gave the wisest, clearest answers to my questions, drawn > from their own profound experience. Barba-Kostas Ziogas in > Perithori near Kato Nevrokopi was one, and he told me: > > ?Look lad, the Greki aren?t more Greek than we are. We may > be Vlachs, they may be Greki, but all together we make up > the Greeks.? " > > Respectfully submitted, > > Christos D. Katsetos > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/mgsa-l/attachments/20030121/f70d7396/attachment.html From dkatseto at bellatlantic.net Mon Jan 20 18:31:35 2003 From: dkatseto at bellatlantic.net (Christos D. Katsetos) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:06:07 2005 Subject: [MGSA-L] Vlahos References: Message-ID: <3E2CB106.FCBB33E6@bellatlantic.net> Samuel Has